db5086 Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 I'm ready to try a small sample of dragons eggs. I can make the lacquer following Ned's instructions but I have some from a paint store that is labeled "Nitrocellulose". Will this be suitable as a binder or is there something in a paint grade that kills the effect. The MSDS list the solvents and rosin ester. I've read contradictions on using paint grade. Any advice will be greatly appreciated
Nessalco Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Making lacquer from double-base smokeless powder is easy, fast, and works the best for dragon's eggs. Frankly, I wouldn't waste time with a paint-store product. Kevin O 1
BurritoBandito Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I believe this is what TaiwanLuthiers uses. I'm not sure if he makes dragon eggs or just uses it for BP slurry. You might shoot him a PM and ask him about it. I do agree with Nessalco about using smokeless powders though.
Mumbles Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Most paint grade NC lacquers tend to have quite a bit of plasticizer and other additives that give it the properties ideal for painting and woodworking. You can try it of course, but sticking to tried and true methods will give you a better probability of success. 1
dagabu Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 For dragon eggs, you want double base nitrocellulose, many have tried NCL and have found it lacking. I just went for the double base and they worked very well, and loud too! 1
abbykarim Posted August 16, 2014 Posted August 16, 2014 im a bit confused when it comes to NC lacquer, i see this as a homemade stuff with ping pong balls and acetone. but i know NC as being nitrated cotton or nitro cellulose aka gun cotton. would dissolving gun cotton in acetone be a correct thing ....or does this only reffer to the ping pong ball stuff. i also saw ned gorski making this with acetone and smokeless powder....and if i am not mistaken, the smokless powder is some sort of formulation for pelletized gun cotton......please help me to understand the concepts here..anyone thanks.
Peret Posted August 17, 2014 Posted August 17, 2014 Nitrocellulose comes in different varieties, depending on whether one, two or all three OH groups are replaced by NO3 groups. Which in turn depends on the strength of the acid used to react it. All three kinds burn vigorously and dissolve in acetone to make NC lacquer, but only the fully nitrated kind explodes. Varnishes and ping pong balls are the lesser nitrated variety, smokeless powder is of course the explosive kind. Anything made of NC has other additives that may or may not be helpful - ping pong balls contain camphor, which gives them the characteristic smell. Smokeless powder has binders and stabilizers and something else that burns to use the oxygen released in decomposition - possibly carbon. I'd be a bit hesitant about using double base, since that also contains nitroglycerin. If you leave your NC resin in a warm place and forget about it, the solvent evaporates and leaves a kind of hard plastic residue in the container. I would be unhappy to find a little pool of nitroglycerin sitting in the middle. Don't know if that's a possibility and would rather not do the experiment to find out. You can buy pure nitrocellulose linters, it's pure white and looks like little bits of chopped cotton rag. That makes a good lacquer, perfectly clear. A pound is a big bag and lasts a long time if you keep it in the freezer, though lately I've noticed my (frozen) bag is generating gas and inflating, so I probably should use it up soon. 2
abbykarim Posted August 17, 2014 Posted August 17, 2014 Nitrocellulose comes in different varieties, depending on whether one, two or all three OH groups are replaced by NO3 groups. Which in turn depends on the strength of the acid used to react it. All three kinds burn vigorously and dissolve in acetone to make NC lacquer, but only the fully nitrated kind explodes. Varnishes and ping pong balls are the lesser nitrated variety, smokeless powder is of course the explosive kind. Anything made of NC has other additives that may or may not be helpful - ping pong balls contain camphor, which gives them the characteristic smell. Smokeless powder has binders and stabilizers and something else that burns to use the oxygen released in decomposition - possibly carbon. I'd be a bit hesitant about using double base, since that also contains nitroglycerin. If you leave your NC resin in a warm place and forget about it, the solvent evaporates and leaves a kind of hard plastic residue in the container. I would be unhappy to find a little pool of nitroglycerin sitting in the middle. Don't know if that's a possibility and would rather not do the experiment to find out. You can buy pure nitrocellulose linters, it's pure white and looks like little bits of chopped cotton rag. That makes a good lacquer, perfectly clear. A pound is a big bag and lasts a long time if you keep it in the freezer, though lately I've noticed my (frozen) bag is generating gas and inflating, so I probably should use it up soon. i appreciate all this advise. in my country most of these things are "not koshier" to own or buy or even make. so most of my work is still experimental......its a shame that life can be mafe so hard...all i want to do is make cool fireworks...i just love them
Arthur Posted August 17, 2014 Posted August 17, 2014 Clear and coloured NC lacquer is used for finishing guitars, and the lacquer tends to be available on ebay. 1
db5086 Posted August 21, 2014 Author Posted August 21, 2014 Ok it's been couple of weeks. I experimented with the paint grade stuff and got nothing from the eggs. Mixed up 60g of a double based powder with acetone and got the bang I was looking for with a torch for ignition. Now I have to find a prime that works as BP mill dust just burns off and I don't get them smoldering. I don't have all the chems for the proper prime yet but will soon. 60g of powder gave me a full qt of lacquer with a heavy cream consistency.
abbykarim Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 just asking this again....if i nitrate my own cellulose and then mix in acetone, would this be suitable?
BurritoBandito Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 Abbykarim, if your NC is good it should work fine. Have you ever preformed any nitrations? If not please read up before hand. Washing and neutralizing is very important. Unwashed NC can contain H2SO4. I'm not sure if sulfur incompatibilities would apply, but I'd assume so. Though I have never personally witnessed this, over time the unwashed NC runs the risk of spontaneous ignition. Suffice to say this would be undesirable in a shell. 1
rogeryermaw Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Do some heavy research before you attempt even this simple nitration. The process is inherently dangerous. Temperature control is critical. Decomposition products of nitric acid are as toxic as the necessary acids themselves. I would never tell someone not to explore chemistry, but FULLY EDUCATE YOURSELF on all processes, properties of reagents and side products and make your safety procedures and emergency reactions second nature before you proceed. The moment something goes awry is no time to panic. Seconds are critical when reactions run away. A week in the hospital after experimenting with phosphorous chlorination was my reward for second guessing myself when things got hairy in the lab. Edited August 21, 2014 by rogeryermaw 1
abbykarim Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 i have done similar chemistry at university....but that was many years ago. i am confident in carrying the procedure but i will have to just refresh my skills and work small scale. my down side is that because of heavy restrictions in my country i will have to make every thing from scratch, including the nitric acid. but i will have to improvise and modify apparatus.
rogeryermaw Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) For nitration like gun cotton, I have heard of people using a nitrate bath with sulfuric acid. You do not necessarily have to distill the nitric acid before use. With a nitrate salt and concentrated sulfuric acid, the nitric is formed in situ. Of course this won't work for all nitrations and you must research but, iirc, nitrocellulose is one you can use this technique on. As mentioned further up, neutralization is very important for safety and nitrocellulose does not keep forever. Try not to make more than you'll use in a couple of months. Edited August 21, 2014 by rogeryermaw
Greg Posted August 24, 2014 Posted August 24, 2014 can I use the nitrocellulose prills from e-bay to make dragon eggs ?
Nessalco Posted August 24, 2014 Posted August 24, 2014 Well, I'll be darned. Had no idea they sold NC in prills. Greg, I can only report what Lloyd S. states about making dragon's eggs - Double base smokeless powder dissolved in acetone is the best choice. Make up only what you need, and keep it fresh. Kevin
Blaster5337 Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 Newbie here, haven't attempted anything yet just doing lots of reading and coming up with probably stupid questions that are probably answered somewhere else in this forum, so forgive me but here is my question. In the process of making BP I see dextrin is utilized as a binder, can that be replaced with nitrocellulose lacquer as a binder? Would there be any benefit? Blaster
Nessalco Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 Blaster, Perhaps, but it's not something I've tried. I granulate using red gum & alcohol, so binders other than dex are possible. Kevin
Livingston Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 1 real deal ping pong to every 30ml of acetone. Let it melt and boom you have that has been proven to work. It's cheap and easy to make. Yes I've come across this info on you to the tube. I've used this it it works just fine. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oGtruXwYClk Please don't judge me for cursing. I was a little excited!! "Now let's make sum Sky Art"
taiwanluthiers Posted November 23, 2014 Posted November 23, 2014 I never tried to make dragon eggs, but I tried using paint grade NC and it doesn't really have good combustion characteristics. It burns but with heavy black residue. I find that plain old celluloid burns rather well, without residue. For source of celluloid ping pong balls work, but also Fender guitar picks are made of celluloid, and some guitar pickguards (the tortiseshell ones) are celluloid as well. I read somewhere that the ATF placed smokeless powder as well as things like pyrodex on the explosives list as of 2013, and that means if you buy it and you don't own a gun, it's a crime. Can someone elaborate on that?
Mumbles Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Perhaps it would be more helpful if you told us where you read it. Otherwise it's just unfounded rumor, and you asking us to do research for you.
taiwanluthiers Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 According to this: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-10-28/pdf/2013-25370.pdf This is the list of explosives the ATF publishes. It was recently changed to include not only black powder, but black powder substitutes (like pyrodex and stuff). I realize there are exemptions for sporting use but what does that mean? And smokeless powder is listed as well. Can you still buy smokeless powder at sporting goods store no questions asked?
Nessalco Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 I have to wonder what your obsession with this might be, Tai. Especially since none of these laws apply to you, living in Taiwan. He "read this" on a forum posting I made on TRF, a rocketry forum. On that rocketry forum, Tai has been offering some, ummm, interesting advice to the rocketeers - like using unsafe compounds for ejection charges, or dissecting fireworks to get BP to evade the current laws. He was slapped down once already by the mods, and is likely going to get banned if he keeps it up. They don't take kindly to such things. Kevin OClassen
taiwanluthiers Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) I wasn't offering people to use unsafe compounds, I was merely saying how it was unsuitable to use due to its characteristics. I think they misunderstood me on that. .. and I guess this is why some people refuse to participate in pyro/rocketry forums... people take little stuff like this too personally and then attack the person for stuff like that. Give people a break man... I seen more breaks given to obvious kewl bombers and yet I catch flak for one or two things... Do you have something personal against me? If you got a problem against me why can't you pm me and tell me what a jerk I have been or how I've been telling people to do dangerous stuff and it needs to stop? Usually mods would pm or delete the offending post/pm. And as to why I care so much about US laws, because I'm about to move to the US, I do care. I care because I want to remain above board in following its laws, since ignorance of the law is no excuse (but given how complicated they are, and how contradictory they are sometimes, that's a tall order). Edited November 24, 2014 by taiwanluthiers
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