black powder

[Ubehage]

My 'pulverone' blows away commercial powder.

Such a thing as "commercial powder" doesn't exist in my country, so I can only judge by looking at videos.

But I would agree, the same applies to mine.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Ubehage

[Mumbles]

Wheel mills are also used for quite a long time. Even stamp mills where used.

Other older method for hand making are more like the cia method. E.g. one method was to dissolve the kno3 in Water add charcoal and sulfur.

Spread out dry half a day and ram into a tube. Split the tube lenghtwise, dry and brake up.. Other methods where just drying the powder and crush it up.

Sometimes even just dry mixing was used.

This powder is obviously not as strong as nowadays bp, but if you use enough it works.

 

Also one of the last inventions in making bp is granulating. For a long time seperation of the components during transport was big issue, due to the use of meal powder. Before binders got used other methods where tried e.g. melting the sulfur in the Bp (under pressure). Many of them didn't work, rendered the bp useless or where to hazardous (like the molten sulfur) as they liked to ignite the bp during the process.

 

I'd be interested in reading some of the sources for these types of things.

[dagabu]

Yes of course nowadays corning or ricing is the way to go. But the question was about historic methods.

 

I'm pretty sure the 1700's are pretty historic and the press was used to make cakes around the turn of the century.

 

WPAG Handout, Credit Steve Hubing (2014?)

 

 

Black Powder Stamping Mill

 

Edited February 19, 2015 by dagabu

[MrB]

That mill... And the wooden logmill (ball mill) we had a while back... I just don't get it. These are next to artworks, and nobody ever talks about them, och shows pictures. We need a thread for the exotic and esoteric, i think...

 

Nice picture Dagabu, thank you for sharing it.

B!

[captainG]

 

I'd be interested in reading some of the sources for these types of things.

me too....good info guys Edited February 20, 2015 by captainG

[dagabu]

That mill... And the wooden logmill (ball mill) we had a while back... I just don't get it. These are next to artworks, and nobody ever talks about them, och shows pictures. We need a thread for the exotic and esoteric, i think...

 

Nice picture Dagabu, thank you for sharing it.

B!

 

I have the book but cant find it online to give you the Google link, sorry.

[MrB]

Thanks for trying.

B!

[dagabu]

I did a little more serching and found the ebook for free on the play store.

 

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=tsAJAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.PP7

 

The manufacture of explosives, a theroritical and practical treatise on the history, the physical and chemical properties and the manufacture of explosives.

-Oscar Guttman

[MrB]

Looks like it's not available to my "region", all i get is the cover, and a "add to wishlist" button. No buy / read options.

I'm going to take the title and head over to my local library, and see what they can do. Thanks again.

B!

[dagabu]

Looks like it's not available to my "region", all i get is the cover, and a "add to wishlist" button. No buy / read options.

I'm going to take the title and head over to my local library, and see what they can do. Thanks again.

B!

 

It's a remarkable read, it was written right in the middle of the anarchists revolution and was written under much gnashing of teeth!

 

.PDF https://ia802303.us.archive.org/31/items/manufactureofexp01guttuoft/manufactureofexp01guttuoft.pdf

Edited February 21, 2015 by dagabu

[match]

Attempted to make

300g batch of no

In my 3 pound rock tumbler

Hf came out disappointed

U think the overload was

Cause of this used lead media

I made 200g with great results

I use willow charcoal milled for 6 hrs

[BillyBobBodean]

Late to the party but my 2 cents. I use willow when milling my BP and according to how fine my KNO3 is go for 6-12 hours. When I granulate I use 100% Isopropyl alcohol. Dries fast and in my opinion this has given me better results than any dextrin\water formula. I was actually quite surprised at how hot it was the first time I tested it.

[eonblue68]

I haven't tried alcohol yet but I have used water and made it to a clay like consistency and it doesn't burn that fast. Then I tried acetone and made it to the same consistency then ran it through a screen used to prevent grease spatter while cooking and sorry I'm unsure of the screen size but it came out to a very small granual size, almost a powder and it made a huge difference. It ignites easy and burns very fast. I'm quite new to this but it works great in 1 and 2 inch shells. I've sent a 2' x 3' potato in the air about 300 feet. I like the acetone because it dries so fast and can be used to fire a shell in an hour after production.

[Merlin]

I haven't tried alcohol yet but I have used water and made it to a clay like consistency and it doesn't burn that fast. Then I tried acetone and made it to the same consistency then ran it through a screen used to prevent grease spatter while cooking and sorry I'm unsure of the screen size but it came out to a very small granual size, almost a powder and it made a huge difference. It ignites easy and burns very fast. I'm quite new to this but it works great in 1 and 2 inch shells. I've sent a 2' x 3' potato in the air about 300 feet. I like the acetone because it dries so fast and can be used to fire a shell in an hour after production.

I have tried that as well and with ethanol but after a while in storage (3 mo) I saw a big reduction in power. Dont know if a freak thing but wonder if acetone causes the comp to be more prone to absorb water in storage after time. You might be on the look out for this. Also, water/dextrin method takes a LOT of drying. It can look and feel dry but is not. Put your comp in a zip lock bag and place in direct sun for an hour or so. If you see little droplets of moisture form on the sunny side up part of bag then it is not dry. I will have reduced power.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Merlin

[jakespeed]

On the same note, I have been in the pyrotechnics industry in the states for 15 years. I have been making shells for 10 of those using commercial BP. With the rising cost of blasting BP to outragous heights, ive decided to make my own cannon grade. I hear alot of talk about people using alcohol vs water to activate the dex. I have been experimenting with different formulas and here are the results shooting a 150g baseball. Desired height is 300 feet. First batch was 75% KNO3 15% willow airfloat 10% sulfur, +4% dextrin. Milled for 5 hours, then formed into a dense clay ball with hot water and grated with a cheese grater. Second batch was the exact same only 100% denatured alcohol was used. Dried over night the water bp granuales were tough but not rock soild and grey. The alcohol bp was very tough. Could not crush and was much darker. I used 1.3 OZ of each to fire the baseball. I used the formula to figure the height of each. Water based total height 289 feet. The alcohol based was 658 feet. Same exact composition and milling but only difference was the water vs the alcohol. Sorry for the long post but for newbies who are havimg trouble getting hot bp this is an option.

ran across this old thread searching for something else & decided to try some alcohol BP since i had some mill powder & free time

 

i used a 75/15/10/1% formula for kno3/charcoal/sulfer/dextrin & milled for 3hrs

 

with all else equal i made a 1/2 lb each of water & alcohol base

 

instead of ~3TBS of boiling water i used ~10TBS of alcohol, costing ~62 cents

 

to compare the 2 BP's i used 4g of 2F to shoot a 335g pvc rocket off a copper tube & stop-watched the total air time

 

i timed 4 interleaved shots of each type with the intent of throwing out 1 outlier but the timings were so tight i just averaged them all

 

water times: 3.59/3.79/3.61/3.54 avg 3.63

alcohol times: 5.11/4.79/5.00/5.11 avg 5.00

 

so the alcohol base was 37% stronger than the water

 

unlike the original poster, i found my water based BP to be darker than the alcohol

 

i don't mind the extra cost & like the fast dry time & extra lift

Edited April 1, 2018 by jakespeed

[Mumbles]

What sort of alcohol did you use? Also did you notice any difference in the physical strength of the grains?

[jakespeed]

What sort of alcohol did you use? Also did you notice any difference in the physical strength of the grains?

used denatured alcohol from lowes, ~$16/gal. is there a better type ? noticed no difference in strength. i was able to both types of cannon grade thru my screen w/o much pressure

[Mumbles]

Not that I'm particularly aware of. I was just curious. There's some weird things that can happen with regard to binding when using things like 70% isopropanol.

[speedtrap]

Newbie question. After the final drying of the BP and I find out it didn't bond can I try and try again or is this a useless dust or is it possible to remix with a different binder or water instead of solvent?

I'm like all over the board with BP, I always use the mix 75,15,10. Ball mill at least 4 hours some longer to try and improve speed. Water base and dextrin has worked well with rice hulls but it seems to have a short shelf life.

I like the alcohol base BP the best. I do make a good batch sometimes. Baseballs are flying. It goes from weighing launch powder by the gram to having a shell come back to the ground and burst. Then a sprinkle of flash and mortar tubes explode the fiberglass.

I guess I'll get some consistency after a truck load of chems. I sure is fun though, I tell the friends every fuse has an experiment at the other end.

 

Thanks,

David

[Merlin]

Never use any amount of flash for lifting.

Is your ball mill 1/2 to 2/3 full of lead? Are your Chems dry? You should add the dex to the BP while milling. Best to avoid excessive heat and humidity when milling. Your drum should be turning around 60 RPM for 3 hours depending on the type drum you are using. Dry your granulated or BP rice hulls in a proper drying box. Transfer the dried BP to a proper drying box usually over night. Place BP in a air tight container like a 5 gallon gama-seal bucket with a quart of dessicant. You can get at Dollar stores. Seal dry with dehumidifier and should keep a year. I test 25 g and if baseball fails to get 11 second flight - dry a bit and it's good to go. Never put flash in a mortar. You need a supply of consistent BP.

[Mumbles]

What variety of charcoal are you using? This both affects speed, and might affect how well the alcohol binding works. I don't think anyone really understands all the variables behind that.

[speedtrap]

The charcoal is mix hardwood airfloat. As up and down the board my BP is I don't think a different charcoal would make any difference. Maybe after I get a handle on two or three in a row, then some fine tuning could be in order.

I think the moisture in my BP has a lot to do with it. As Merlin said get it dry. I'll have to build a drying box for this. I mixed a batch up yesterday and let it dry out side in the sun 85 deg or so for about 4 to 5 hours, this is alcohol base BP with red gum. So I put it in a big ziplock bag last night and set it in the sun today, I checked on it a while later and couldn't believe the moisture in the bag, it was a rain storm ready to happen. Back on the screens it went. And that was solvent based mix. I don't understand where it came from.

Anyway, thank you for the info on what to try and what to do. And Merlin my ball mill is an old rock tumbler with two 8 inch drums and I did put some bigger hoses on the shafts to speed it up to around 80 rpm. I use glass marbles instead of lead. I have some 50 cal lead balls but they seem too soft. I'm keeping my eye out.....for some SS 1/2" balls. No more flash. Got it. I lost another 3" tube last night. But it sure went high though.

[NeighborJ]

Most solvents absorb water from the atmosphere. Alcohol automatically will absorb at least 8% of its weight of water from the atmosphere once it is exposed to air. On top of that, there is something called the evaporative cooling effect, when a solvent is evaporating it will drop in temerature. Fast drying solvents can drop below the dew point in the atmosphere causing a comp to take on water.

 

Marbles!!! I need to object. Mables or glass media is a huge safety issue. The glass chips and leaves shards of sharpened shavings tumbling around in the mill along with your milling comp. Those sharp edges collide with the other media causing pinch points. The forces created in those pinch points far exceed the pressure ignition point of BP, it certanly has a high ignition pressure but that razors edge can create tremendous amounts of psi in that one concentrated area. Many documented accidents confirm this and it is a good idea to discontinue their use.

[Arthur]

Fast black powder in NOT made with mixed hardwood charcoal.

Black powder is never milled with marbles.

 

Alumina media from Inoxia Ltd is good in rock tumblers.

 

Charcoal needs to come from the list of preferred woods including; Willow, Red Alder, Eastern Red Cedar (pet bedding!)

 

Dry the ingredients first, charcoal can adsorp at least it's own weight of water before it looks wet which makes mixtures hard to calculate!

[justvisiting]

Here is an article detailing my efforts to make lift using commercial airfloat charcoal. It's certainly not the ideal charcoal to select, as has already been mentioned. I got consistent results with this method. The key is to use more charcoal, a suggestion I read about in an AFN article.

http://pyrobin.com/files/How%20To%20Make%20Lift%20For%20Shells%20Using.pdf