take your shots now..

[dagabu]

I like the traditional BP sets but I like the Universal hybrid much better since you can make whistle, strobe, color fuel, chuffer, hybrid, BP, nozzleless and other types of rockets without a tooling change.

 

For the beginner with limited funds, I recommend Ben Smith's 1# set for the universal rocket. Brass spindle, and superior machining, you cant go wrong.

[Maserface]

How is the most expansive set of tooling the best option for a pyro with limited funds ?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love bens tooling, but those two dots just don't connect in my mind

[BurritoBandito]

I believe Dag is saying that since the tooing is universal you save cash compared to buying everything that it can function as.

[dagabu]

How is the most expansive set of tooling the best option for a pyro with limited funds ?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love bens tooling, but those two dots just don't connect in my mind

 

It was actually in reply to your quote on traditional BP tooling, the OP asking about #1 tooling and even Nates comment on the "ideal" beginning rocket diameter. All taken into consideration, I made the suggestion that the tooling from Ben Smith would be the most bang for your buck if you wished to ever do other rockets.

 

Purchasing traditional BP tooling would leave you out of enjoying many of the other fuel types and would overall cost much more in the end. Proverbial 'dots' connected.

[nater]

I agree with Dag, you can make so many different types of rockets on Ben Smith's 3/4" tooling. If I could only have one tooling set, that would be the one.

[Maserface]

This is a different point, but I disagree. Other than strobe fuels (which I believe should be made on strobe tooling) my bp spindle plenty "universal".

 

To the other point, while Ben does make the best spindle on the market (IMO) it's not a cheap investment. I would have to recommend a set of tooling from hunter. Great quality, even better price!

[ddewees]

I make strobe rockets on my bp spindle...

 

BP, Whistle, chuffer, colored AP, IBP, etc. Haven't found a rocket that wouldn't work yet. Add in waxed tubes, and I prefer the longer spindle... It's somewhat misleading suggesting bp tooling is only good for one thing.

Edited June 8, 2014 by ddewees

[dagabu]

Thanks dd and masterface, that is what this site is all about, expressing your opinions and defending your reasons why. In keeping with that premise, please allow me to flesh my opinion out a little more so the n00bz can get the full story behind my recommendation. But first, allow me to comment on an item. Hunters tooling is great and if you are looking for traditional BP tooling, I would send everyone to him but he does not sell the Universal Hybrid set (please correct me if I am wrong) and Ben does, that is the subject of my rebuttal.

 

-Traditional tooling can indeed be used with tamer BP and rather lackadaisical whistle but cannot be used with the nominally hot fuels now used in the UT rockets or they over-pressure the tube. This means that for nearly the same realized thrust, more chemicals have to be used to fill the longer tube, more tube has to be used and the heavier tube filled with more chemical has to be lifted. It is rather circular thinking and in raw chemicals, is wasteful.

 

Again, this in only my opinion, feel free to disagree but be sure to mount a defense that is not just anecdotal.

 

-Strobe tooling was invented by the same guy that invented the Universal Hybrid tooling and he did so because the original strobe tooling could not use the less powerful but easier to work with benzoate based whistle to get the rocket to a decent height. Therefore, IMHO, dedicated strobe tooling is an artifact of an era that has moved on.

 

-Colored fuels can indeed be used successfully in traditional tooling sets and actually work better due to the larger cavity, allowing the slower fuel to burn more surface at once allowing conventional fusing methods. With top-lighting techniques, the UT can be used to the same effect and with the same usable thrust, again, due to the lesser mass and less inertia to overcome.

 

-UT also allows the use of the nozzleless configuration to a larger degree by allowing the use of much hotter fuels that, depending on the location if ignition, can provide usable thrust levels well beyond that of traditional tooling due to the shorter grain (well documented on the ACME test rig).

 

I am certainly not saying that traditional BP tooling is only good for one thing, I indeed have a set that has an even longer and thinner spindle for sugar rockets that are top-lit. They indeed can be used in many configurations but not nearly as many as the UT set (documented by many rocketeers over the past five or so years) and at a significantly higher per unit cost.

 

In closing, it really doesn't matter as long as you make rockets, lots of them please.

 

Having made rocket motors for almost 30 years with all sorts of spindles, long, short etc. the UT has the best overall value for a single tooling set. Come to PGI and I will demonstrate that concept with your tooling and mine in side by side comparisons.

 

Here is where I have come from.

 

Left to right:

#3 BP spindle, steel bolt, 20/20 metal filled epoxy DeLaval divergence, made on a drill press in 1985, thousands of motors made and flew.

#3 BP spindle, aluminum rod, 20/20 metal filled epoxy cone divergence, made on a drill press in 1995, a few hundred paper tubes met their death with this spindle.

#3 BP spindle, aluminum rod, 20/20 metal filled epoxy cone divergence, made on a drill press in 1995, died a painful death in 2009 when the wrong rammer was used.

 

[ddewees]

Great info... and cool pics. Love that nozzle on the first one.

 

One argument could be your mentioning "tamed down fuel", many times this can be a pleasing effect, such as a nice charcoal tail... or a slower rising nozzled motor.

 

As far as not being able to use hotter fuels, I think waxed tubes is solving that issue, and providing opportunity for greater thrusts...

 

I consider these rockets to be great performers, testing over 60lbs on the acme, and they are always a crowd pleaser with their bright start and lightning fast jump off the rack. All made on standard bp tooling...

 

They were lifting 1500g headings at our last club shoot with ease on 3lb tooling.

 

[Video]

 

[Video]

 

[Video]

 

I do agree, that it doesn't really matter how you make them... just make a lot of them. (and post videos please)

Edited June 8, 2014 by ddewees

[dagabu]

AMEN!! P.S. Gorgeous rockets!

[boostedmx3]

information overload!!!!!!!!!!!

[boostedmx3]

What should I do first?? Other then attempt some BP?

 

Bentonite 2lb

Dextrin 1lb

Sulfur 1lb

Air float charcoal 1lb

KCLO4 3lb

KNO3 8lb

Dark aluminum 2lb

Strontium carbonate 1lb

 

Red green white and gold crackling fish fuse and some visco as well

 

It's hard to order this stuff based on weight when your not familiar as the density is so diff from one chem to the next

[Bobosan]

You could look at the formula ratios/percentages to give you some idea of how much of one chem to order.

For example, BP uses more KN03 than charcoal and more charcoal than sulfur in the standard 75/15/10 ratio.

Add to that your even smaller percentage of Dextrin.

 

Theoretically, a vendor like Skylighter has kits with a measured amount of chems that makes a set amount of end product, like BP.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Bobosan

[Shadowcat1969]

That is actually one nice thing about this hobby. Since formulas are by weight, the density or volume of a given chem is somewhat immaterial, at least in so far as getting a working composition.

It does come in to play when you are looking at how many stars of a given size will be needed for a particular shell, or how much composition it will take to fill a tube.

 

I'd say, get your BP going and working well, then you can look at something like a simple flying fish fuse mine, maybe a charcoal based Gerb, especially if you buy a pound of more coarse charcoal (like 80 mesh). That can also lead you into the charcoal based stars, like tiger tails or Chrysanthemum 6 or 8.

[boostedmx3]

Ya that's kinda what I did and y I ended up with 8lbs of kno3.. Just crazy how a pound of sulfur is like nothing in size compared to the charcoal

 

And flying fish fuse mine is first on my list for sure with some fountains and smoke bombs...

 

How well would an actual smoke - bomb work

Like could I pack some bentonite down then maybe a half gram of flash with a short paper fuse coming out then a lil more bentonite followed by a kno3/sugar smoke comp.. Kinda end with a bang

[Shadowcat1969]

I'd suggest starting out with just a simple smoke bomb, for now. Until you have your smoke working reliably and know what it's going to do I'd stay away from adding flash. I know it's hard, but it's really safest to know your base devices/comps before adding in the stuff that can instantly take off fingers or worse.

[boostedmx3]

Oh def. that was the plan.. But if I'm gonna cook a batch of smoke I figured I would make one or two ones with a bang and only light them if the reg smoke worked good..

 

The real question is isolating the flash from the molten smoke mix safe to do if it's done with a good Half inch or so of bentonite

[Shadowcat1969]

Me, I'd just make the ones without to start. If it does NOT work, and you've made the ones with the flash, then you just wasted materials and your time by making a device you don't want to use. That is a lesson I learned the hard way, though not with flash, just with making multiple devices before testing, just to find out that they didn't work.

 

I'm not an authority on smoke, it's not one of my areas of interest, so as far as that part goes, I'll let someone that has experience with them reply.

[FlaMtnBkr]

What is IBP? I'm not making a connection.

[ddewees]

What is IBP? I'm not making a connection.

Just a dumb acronym meaning "insane black powder". It's basically black powder and flash.

[boostedmx3]

i must have missed that..

 

 

making some smoke comp in a few min here.. im going to do it in a pan on the grill kno3 and sugar.. its a gas grill but its better then inside on the stove lol

[dagabu]

i must have missed that..

 

 

making some smoke comp in a few min here.. im going to do it in a pan on the grill kno3 and sugar.. its a gas grill but its better then inside on the stove lol

Do you have an electric skillet? MUCH safer!

[boostedmx3]

unfortunately no i do not.. i will be keeping the lid up and the flame on low

[dagabu]

Leather gloves, face shield, thick cotton jacket and pants?

 

Seriously, don't end up like I did.

[Shadowcat1969]

unfortunately no i do not.. i will be keeping the lid up and the flame on low

Even that would be too much for me. No open flame should be anywhere around this stuff, until you are lighting your device. Just my personal opinion.

 

But if you must, then PLEASE follow Dagabu's advice on PPE. I'd even suggest adding a balaclava type hood (cotton or nomex) under the face shield, as flame can and will billow around the edges of a simple shield.