Smoke Mixes

[LiamPyro]

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with KCIO3 smoke formulas. I've stopped using KNO3/Sugar because it is very hygroscopic and is not at all practical.

[leedrill]

i have quite a bit of experience with kclo3 and lactose colour mixes but have not played with black and white smokes with kclo3

 

im no genius but am happy to answer any questions i can and share my experience with what ive done

Edited May 7, 2014 by leedrill

[psyco_1322]

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with KCIO3 smoke formulas. I've stopped using KNO3/Sugar because it is very hygroscopic and is not at all practical.

 

While the nitrate/sugar mixes kind of suck for smoke output, there are ways around the hygroscopic aspect of the mix. I used to cast the mix into cupcake pans and then triple dip them in wax, they stored very well. Then just wrapping them up in Saran wrap will work for shorter term storage. Paraffin smokers are pretty good if done right, and store well if they use a melted mix.

 

I always was a fan of the ole ammonium nitrate/newspaper smokers. So easy and pretty effective, but also suffer from moisture problems.

[Respirator]

Unfortunately I have almost no experience with proper KClO3 smoke formulas but nitrate smokes should not be too hydroscopic with care and slight modification. Remember that sugar rocket propellants are basically modified nitrate/sugar smoke mixes and the rocketry hobby has solved many hydroscopicity (spelling?) problems like adding corn syrup - have a read, and try storing them in a CaCl2 desiccator (ones used against mold) I have a few grains of nitrate/sugar fuel from 3-4 months ago and still dry.

[LiamPyro]

All I know is that carmelized KNO3 and sugar seems to degrade and release lots of oils within about a day after construction.

I think that the hygroscopicity of KNO3/Sugar is caused by the sugar, as I know it absorbs moisture from the air. Anyways, I happen to have a pound of KCIO3, so I thought I might aswell try it. Is lactose the best fuel for KCIO3 mixes? Isn't it sold as "milk sugar"or something like that?

[dave321]

sucrose is actually better

as icing sugar, its nice and fine.

 

sucrose gives a slightly lower temp. than lactose with pot chlorate.

generally about 40% dye is required (usually solvent dyes)

 

a typical composition would be

 

dye 40 (or 53 and no colophony)

pot chlorate 24

sucrose 19

colophony 13 (this helps to preserve the dye colour)

mag carbonate 4

[bob]

Here is a link to a topic with a KN03/Sugar/Wax smoke bomb http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/9536-pyroguide-utube-account/

This smoke bomb works quite well for me and I have had zero hygroscopic problems. You may also want to try storing the stuff in the freezer.

bob

[LiamPyro]

I know sucrose can be used with potassium chlorate, but I was also wondering about lactose, since I know it is

used in commercial smoke bombs and is not hygroscopic. Using wax and KNO3/Sugar is a good idea, except for the fact that

it is harder to work with because it is not a powder. What is a good formula that uses KCIO3 and lactose?

[Thezoranator]

Well id say rocket candy smoke mix is good but, like you said today, it doesnt work as well as a normal smoke mix, such as KNO3.

[LiamPyro]

I agree, R-candy is pretty fun, but in my opinion

it is totally impractical. By the way, commercial smoke

mix doesn't use KNO3, it uses KCIO3.

[LiamPyro]

Hey, I have also been wondering about what dyes to use for coloring smoke bombs. I have heard that you should use organic dyes, but I don't have any idea where to get that sort of thing. Would "Rit" dye work, because I know where to buy it.

[psyco_1322]

Hey, I have also been wondering about what dyes to use for coloring smoke bombs. I have heard that you should use organic dyes, but I don't have any idea where to get that sort of thing. Would "Rit" dye work, because I know where to buy it.

 

No, you can not use fabric dyes. Look at Firefox, they sell a lot of colored smoke stuff, Skylighter does some as well.

[schroedinger]

For coloring smokes there are two ways to go.

First the easy way (and recommended as it way less mess then the other), buy zhe ready made smoke mixes from a hobby supplier and mix 'em according to the instructions with kclo3.

 

The second one is to get pure dyes (which is sometimes a lot cheaper on big lots) and make up your own smoke mix.

There are organic and inorganic dyes which can be used. I would recommend to stay with the organic ones, as the inorganic ones are most times really hazadous chemicals (with pottasium dichromate beiing one of least hazardous of 'em).

The best dye to start with is indigo, which often can be gotten for quite cheap. Look at art stores or natural hair dyes, where it is often sold for less then 5 $ / 100g.

 

If you've got some experience with this dye start to go over to other dyes, like rhodamine b (quite hazardous). A yellow dye can often be purchased as organic dye from local stores.

For Black smoke you will need to go for naphtalene.

 

[Mumbles]

A lot of the dyes Schroedinger mentioned have been discontinued in industry for one reason or another. Most dyes used today are based on substituted anthraquinones. You can see some of the current ones on this website:

 

http://www.coloredsmoke.com/products.html

 

The older, industrial obsolete, formulas are still popular amongst the hobbyist community when you can actually find the dyes though.

 

As far as where to get them, that can be an issue. They're extremely messy, as one might expect, so it's not always a popular compound to carry. When you can find them, they're usually in the $20-30/lb range at minimum. There is one decent source, but his supply changes with time, so you can't get everything all the time. It is usually inexpensive though. Right now, it looks like he only really has yellow.

 

http://smokechemicals.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=779

[LiamPyro]

What sort of dyes should I look for in stores? Any particular brands or intended uses (Example: hair dye)?

Thanks for the website suggestions!

[Mumbles]

When you're in a store you can look for whatever you'd like, but I wouldn't waste your money or time since none of them will really be suitable. They typically just burn instead of vaporizing/subliming giving you a thin grey smoke. Trust me, if there was an easy to obtain source, colored smokes would be a lot more popular. You're just kind of stuck with the expensive ones online for the most part, unless you happen upon some of the older dyes in lab surplus.

[LiamPyro]

I'm looking for bright colors, mainly orange or red. I would like to avoid ordering dyes online if possible,

because of shipping costs. The smoke mix I will be using is KCIO3/Lactose, if that helps.

[LiamPyro]

Thanks, Mumbles. I had been thinking that might be the case, but wasn't sure. I'll take a look online and see what I come up with.

[boostedmx3]

I too am in a similar position. Looking to add some smoke to my pyro show this season and figure it would be a good place to start with the hobby. I made a bunch of the KN03/sugar ones but i want some color to really impress some ppl..

would this stuff do any good???? if so it seems to be really cheap http://www.amazon.com/Festival-Colors-Rangoli-Holi-Quality/dp/B004APJUM0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1401023896&sr=8-1&keywords=powdered+organic+dye

[Mumbles]

I doubt that would work. Buy some and report back though if you want to give it a shot.

 

Secondly, just so you're aware, KNO3/Sugar smokes don't work for colored effects. They tend to burn too hot.

[WSM]

I'm looking for bright colors, mainly orange or red. I would like to avoid ordering dyes online if possible,

because of shipping costs. The smoke mix I will be using is KCIO3/Lactose, if that helps.

 

My favorite white smokes are:

 

40 40 KClO₃

27 30 NH₄Cl

13 13 NaHCO₃

13 13 Lactose

7 4 Vinsol

 

KClO₃ = potassium chlorate

NH₄Cl = ammonium chloride (sal ammoniac)

NaHCO₃ = sodium bicarbonate (baking soda)

 

These two formulas were the ones I used the most in the mid to late 80’s. They can be bound using either alcohol or acetone. I liked using denatured ethanol (shellac thinner) and it worked well. The compositions work without the Vinsol if you want to leave it out.

 

As a word of caution, avoid any water in this mix. If kept dry, it will store for a long time but may give off a little ammonia smell after a while.

 

These formulas go counter to the common wisdom of never mixing an ammonium compound with chlorates. The fact that it is kept anhydrous plus it's being tamed with bicarbonate lend greatly to it's long history of safety.

 

If you try it, PM me and tell me how it goes.

 

WSM

[LiamPyro]

Speaking of KNO3/Sugar smoke mixes, I have lately been trying to make some small legendary smoke bombs.

Unfortunately, I have run into several problems. First off, I can't get it to light, and when it does it goes out.

Secondly, when it does burn it either has a purplish flame and thin smoke or no flame but grayish smoke.

By the way the composition I'm using is 6 parts KNO3, 4 parts sugar, and 4 parts paraffin candle wax.

If it helps, I'm simply trying to create dense white smoke and the chemicals I have are KNO3, KCIO3, KCIO4,

airfloat charcoal, sulfur, lactose, dextrin and Indian blackhead aluminum. I also have a ball mill. Thanks!

[LiamPyro]

@WSM -I just read your post. Where could I easily get ammonium chloride, and Vinsol is a binder, right?

[schroedinger]

For real white smoke, use the a formula like the one above, which usew ammonia chloride. Those yield real white smoke. Normal kno3 sugar smokes always yield a little grayish smoke

[boostedmx3]

I doubt that would work. Buy some and report back though if you want to give it a shot.

 

Secondly, just so you're aware, KNO3/Sugar smokes don't work for colored effects. They tend to burn too hot.

 

 

i had just googled "powdered organic solvent dye" or something and that came up..

 

and i am aware that the KNO3 doesnt really work well for color.. slightly nervous about playing with KCLO3 to be honest as im def. a newb.

 

 

if the issue for color smoke with KNO3/sugar is temp could one add sulfur to cool it enough to work??? or any other chems to cool the burn so the colored dye would work with KNO3?