vine charcoal is ok for bp?

[superspike23]

hi,

I was starting the production of black powder when I noticed my mistake in the choice of charcoal.
I ordered vine charcoal instead of pine charcoal.
Can I still use it to lift powder?
I do not have another now.
I have replaced all my chemicals following the destruction thereof.

 

Thank u.

 

edit : that means commecial air flot?

Edited April 14, 2014 by superspike23

[nater]

You can make serviceable BP for any purpose from any type of charcoal. Some charcoals are more reactive than others, but with proper testing you should be able to find the right amount of your BP to lift your shells safely. Grapevine charcoal is commonly used in Malta. Danny Cregan and a few others have had varied results with it, and suspect it to be a poor choice for power. It is possible the age of the vine when it is trimmed plays a role in the quality of BP it will produce. So, make your BP with it, test it for strength and use as much as you need for lift.

 

Commercial airfloat charcoal is generally mixed hardwood. It is hard to tell exactly what species it is, as it is made from many types of wood. It considered sufficient for most pyo needs, but not optimal for anything. Again, this is a matter of personal preference. I use a few different types of charcoal, but I don't feel the need to make the most powerful BP that I can possibly make. For hybrid rockets, I like the BP portion to be made with commercial airfloat since it is good enough, readily available and fairly consistent. The power of the rocket fuel is adjusted by the whistle component.

[Arthur]

Vine is fine!

[helix]

have a search through freakydutchmen's posts - I'm sure he used vine charcoal and altered the ratios slightly to get the best performance - the ratio was 70-12-18.

[hindsight]

I ordered vine charcoal instead of pine charcoal.

Yep, it's easy to confuse a "V" with a "P". I once intended to take some Pain medicine and wound up looking in the mirror all day.

Edited April 14, 2014 by hindsight

[FlaMtnBkr]

Did they mess up and give you a bunch of a benzodiazepine?

 

J/k though I didn't know they had a medicine with that effect.

 

On topic, I have tried wild grapevine that was about 2" in diameter and it was actually one of the worst charcoal I have tested. But it has rated well in some literature.

 

You can try it. Depending on the pine, it might be ok, or it might do better for sparks.

[leedrill]

i was told the same thing as in helix's post that vine is great but it is best with a different ratio than 75/15/10 im not sure what it was but the one helix stated would be a good place to start but i do remember it used less charcoal then normal

[superspike23]

thank u.

I'll try the two ratios

[Mumbles]

I remembered the ratio as charcoal - 18 and sulfur - 12. Probably better to search for one of his posts and be sure.

 

It seems very continental dependent. In the US most people seem to have poor luck with grape vine, but those in Europe seem to like it. Maybe it's variety or growing conditions or just old vs. new growth stock. NitroParis sells vine charcoal, and I've been told that product is pretty good, even when used in the US.

[spitfire]

As stated in another post, i tried Vine C too. A Maltese pyrotechnician told me they used it for lift and breakcharge. It gave rather poor results for me... One of my pyro buddies uses plain supermarket BBQ charcoal for his lift and seems to have good results. Personally i prefer my own grown Willow... Like Mumbles said, it seems very continental dependent.

[superspike23]

I made an experiment.
with my 33b lortone, I have two 3lb jar that works together.
I loaded one with vine charcoal and the second with a bag of charcoal for bbq.
both 75-15-10.
3 hours milling.
Black powder with vine charcoal is much more reactive and produces fewer sparks.
Now, I'll give it a try with 70-18-12.

[superspike23]

would you be interested in a video of the test?
if so, I will post the video later.

[spitfire]

Nice experiment superspike23! When you say'' Black powder with vine charcoal is much more reactive and produces fewer sparks.'' I guess you compared it with your batch of bbq charcoal? I am beginning to think my source of vine coal sold me something different, like beech or oak charcoal. It is that un-reactive... Or would local differences/production methods etc. make that much difference?

[ugotit33x]

Has anyone used just plain coal blacksmith coal ground up instead of charcoal??

[Boymechanic]

I would expect vine charcoal to be less reactive than most woods due to their lower cellulose content, but It should still make a useable bp if that's what you have available.

The test video would be a great reference for the rest of us, especially since it seems few people in the US use vine charcoal.

 

spitfire- Production differences do matter. The temperature at which the wood is charred seems to have a large impact on the ignition point of the charcoal, which would directly affect any formula it's used in.

"The ignition point of charcoal depends on the nature of the wood and the temperature at which it is charred. When charred at 300^o C., it will ignite at 360^o to 380^o C.; at 432^o C. it will ignite at 400^o C.; at 1000 to 1500^o C. it will ignite at 600 to 800^o C. Charcoal made from hard wood ignites at a higher temperature than that made from soft wood." ~ Principles of metallurgy: an introduction to the metallurgy of the metals By Charles Herman Fulton, page 354.

 

ugotit33x- This Thread on rec.pyro may help with coal (not charcoal) in formulas. Haven't seen a formula with coal in it for a long time.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Boymechanic

[superspike23]

I'll post the video in a few hours

[superspike23]

here is the video.

Both compositions were made ​​simultaneously.
with the same weight of ceramic media.
75-15-10
70-18-12

black powder was not granulated
they were milled for 6 hours.
With 10 mm ceramic media.

70-18-12 is faster.
It is what I will use as lift.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z10ZIiUMjqw&feature=share&list=UUlrHWRVpLwNwtNgHEZaS4Ow

[ugotit33x]

THANK YOU

[superspike23]

I now granulating 70-18-12 composition.
I'll keep the 75-15-10 to make stars.

Meanwhile, I will prepare a 60-30-10 composition for rockets.

I will show a video of it all.

[superspike23]

Here is the test video of vine charcoal used for rocket:
1 ---> black powder mixed for 6 hours with 75-15-10
vine charcoal
2 ---> black powder mixed for 5 hours 60-30-10
vine charcoal

I used the tools to rocket 10 mm sold by oliver brown:

http://www.oliverbrown.co.uk/acatalog/10mm%20rocket%20tooling%20close%20up%20(Custom)%20(2).JPG

 

 

http://youtu.be/e-q-JOJlPWM

Edited April 20, 2014 by superspike23

[superspike23]

**

Edited April 20, 2014 by superspike23

[superspike23]

to conclude:
I granulated black powder based vine charcoal.
I find very good results using the 70-18-12 ratio.
But I prefer to ask your opinions.
I will post a video later.

[ugotit33x]

 

Here are my tests, and I'm new to this.

Guess I not keen on miners coal.

I think what you are refering to is vein coal not vine coal.

One coal is hard to get.

i find it burns slow no power watching my ow experiment

Soft wood is available and easy to make into charcoal.

I tried both wood chips and stick wood, not much difference

once it tuens to charcoal.

This just my own experience on trying this stuff.

Thank you

[FlaMtnBkr]

He is talking about vine charcoal. Probably grape vine charcoal. Coal, anthracite, does not make good BP.

[ugotit33x]

WOW

No offense but people should clarify what they use.

It could send us off in the wrong direction wasting time.

Anyway live and learn.