EU to "ban" chems, what countries, if any, isn't folowing suite?

[hindsight]

Most terrorists here don't purchase their materials here at all, but rather ship or pack them in (disguised) from the countries best known for supporting terrorism.

 

Like my U.S. friends say, "If you outlaw guns (or explosives, etc.) , only outlaws will have guns (or explosives, etc.)."

 

And you are right about governments wanting control over the "dangerous" items, so there is less of a threat to the repressing government.

 

--hindsight

[taiwanluthiers]

I don't even think it's about controlling dangerous items either, but rather the government wants to discourage private experimentation and discoveries. Therefore anything without a use in everyday lives are made illegal or difficult to obtain by the average people. Then they carefully vet those who gets access to research materials or chemicals so only a select few have knowledge while the rest is only educated enough to be useful in the workplace.

 

Essentially it's like what Pol Pot tried to do, kill anyone smart enough to count to 10 and leave the population dumb so they can work in labor camps. When people are dumb, they won't think about revolting and are easier to control.

 

It's a control on knowledge and technology, absolutely nothing to do with stopping terrorism or crimes, or even idiots removing themselves from the gene pool. Governments of the past remained despotic because they held the intellect, the Roman Catholic Church controlled knowledge in the Middle Ages (the common people were not allowed to read the Bible, if they could even read it at all) in order to strengthen themselves.

[hindsight]

Taiwanluthiers -- While it's reasonable (yet paranoid) to think of despotic governments as having an interest in limiting technology, I doubt that controlling explosives or weapons falls into that category. Governments do limit both to the same ultimate end--control of the population. Dumbing down one's population, however, works about as well as it worked for Pol Pot (that's why it's now called Myanmar). A country still needs to have a competitive edge against antagonizing nations; also a country without innovation suffers in the real battle which is in the world economy.

 

--hindsight

[taiwanluthiers]

Sure, but policymakers who wants power don't necessarily think in that terms. I mean innovation isn't easy when access to materials is difficult. I hear in the 50's how chemistry sets actually contained chemicals (rather than glorified dish soap) and materials needed for any sort of experimentation was easily obtainable. Heck a lot of great minds was born in those times, men who had limited or no formal education. I wonder how would someone like Thomas Edison cope with the modern world where given his lack of formal education, he wouldn't have access to labs (and would have difficulty getting lab equipments from scientific suppliers). Heck in Taiwan we have chemistry stores that would sell chemicals no questions asked, such a place doesn't exist in the US.

[hindsight]

taiwanluthiers--I remember the 50's (in my country) well, when many young men aspired to be the next Dmitri Mendeleev, but resources were scarce despite being pretty much unregulated. Nevertheless, technology blossomed because of a sense of achieving the common good, and people were willing to sacrifice individually. You are right, there is probably a throttling effect when resources are diminished from either economic causes or from governmental prohibition. However, there are other moral(e) issues as well.

[Arthur]

One can only hope that the remaining pyros in Europe will find ways to make something, but maybe smaller and maybe better made.

[taiwanluthiers]

Without "explosive precursor" what else could they make? All the chemicals listed in there are basically required to make anything combustible. I guess they could go with zinc/sulfur stars shot out with compressed air?

[MrB]

Meh... People interested enough will start figuring out effective ways to make KNO3 them self. Other means is simply to find someone willing to sell it, and ship it to you in unmarked packages. Hell, buy BaCO3 and KNO3, Have them label the KNO3 CaCO3, and put "pottery - ceramic supplies" on the box.

I doubt they will test every white powder to figure out what it is.

If you REALLY wanna be funny, dissolve it in water, and send it in small barrels. Even if you stick to what stays in solution @0c it's still a kilo in every 8 liters of water. Just evaporate the water on the receiving end. Put it in 10 liter "bottles" for water dispensers, put a label on it, and carbonate it, and nobody will look at it twize.Assuming it wouldn't get below 15c, you could stick 2 kilo KNO3 in it...

Cost effective? Nope. Of course not. But getting a fellow pyro to send you something in a package that cant be traced back to him, shouldn't be that hard. But i just don't see them making KNO3 unavailable on the market. Just ask around and find a farmer that doesn't mind pyro, he'll be able to buy it, and, if he's using it him self, he will most likely not even charge for it. Or, start a co-operative, claim to be "hobby farmers" and by the stuff yourself... Probably works best if someone has access to "farmland" even if it's just one of those small green places for towns people to poke in the dirt, and pretend they have a garden. Anyway, this is not really a problem with access as i see it. It's cost. When the amount of sources diminishes, the price goes up. A couple of years a 25 kilo fertilizer KNO3 was $25, today it's $46 or so. Oh well.

B!

[Ericz]

It is not about pyro at all.. They are just afraid.. that we get a change of fighting back them with these easy to get chemicals.

 

I really hate it.. but I also have to stock up !

 

Very weird that without a question this has happend...

 

Good luck to you all making or getting chems

[hindsight]

If you want to transport illegal white powders, especially as the price of pyrotechnic precursors peak, you might want to consult the experts...the South American drug cartels.

[MrB]

If you want to transport illegal white powders, especially as the price of pyrotechnic precursors peak, you might want to consult the experts...the South American drug cartels.

I'm not sure thats a great idea. The costs they have to endure is prohibitive, and most of the measures in place to detect crazy white powders will detect their powder, but not ours. Shipping KNO3 as "sparkling (mineral) water" will more then likely work, no testing the customs do would actually trigger even a false positive on that. But that all is simply "over the top". I'm guessing plainly double bagging it, and sticking a CaCO3 sticker on it, and tossing it in a cardboard box labeled "pottery - ceramic supplies" will work. They will probably open it and check it for drugs, since KNO3 is a organic compound, and might trigger some scanners. It wont test positive for any drug-tests, and at that point customs wont bother trying to figure out what it is. They will assume whatever is on the packaging is correct.

Speaking of organic. Perhaps CaCO3 isn't the right label... That stuff isn't organic. Oh well.

B!

[taiwanluthiers]

I always thought by definition organic means hydrocarbons or whatever... generally any ionic substance like kno3/caco3/etc. are considered inorganic.

[MrB]

As far as i know (might be wrong) KNO3 is organic, while carbonates in general aren't.

B!

[Peret]

Europe is a funny place these days. I'm glad I don't live there. The EU Commission sits around making up rules to look busy, that the national governments have to implement in law. That's if you can still call them national governments, since they no longer have any actual power to make their own policies about anything. But hey, Europe is democratic, so why don't people get together and just vote out the EU commissioners in favor of different ones?

 

Oh, wait a minute .....

[MrB]

Yeah, thats a weird way for things to work... We have an upcoming election this year. Well, 2 really. We are supposed to elect Swedens new EU representatives, which people are all "meh" about, motivation being mostly "i don't like EU anyway" and then the vote for government.

 

If they only knew that if they are only going to vote in one of the elections, voting in the EU one is a lot more important then the other one... Oh well. Makes my vote carry more weight. Sadly, when it comes to "most" things, like our toys, most parties are in agreement that it's bad one way or another.

B!

[taiwanluthiers]

You also have to realize that Europeans do not have an inheirant mistrust of the government like the Americans. They see their government as provider and protector, so they trust the government to make the right decision every step of the way.

[ivars21]

Please do not generalise. Also some poorer countries inside EU care less about terrorism (as they are not really a target), so IMO KNO3 will be available for a while.

 

Anyway, I bought 25kg kclo4, I will stock up some garden grade kno3 and sulphur and I should be good for a while.

Edited April 24, 2014 by ivars21

[MrB]

In Europe your more likely to be struck by lightning, or be involved in an aircraft accident with lethal outcome, then be the victim of a terrorist attack, regardless of if you live in a rich or poor country.

Government claims "terrorism" is the cause for everything they want to do, here in Sweden we are just a few steps away from video-cameras in every home, including bedroom, and bathroom coverage. In the UK i think they are already there for parts of London...

B!

[hindsight]

But hey, Europe is democratic, so why don't people get together and just vote out the EU commissioners in favor of different ones?

 

Oh, wait a minute .....

 

Exactly!

[taiwanluthiers]

I seriously think the definition of terrorism is simply anything that would have been considered a normal criminal offense in the past. Now you rob a bank, terrorist. Murder your spouse, terrorist. Beat up your classmate, terrorist.

[Bobosan]

Washington DC is full of terrorists masquerading as elected officials.

[hindsight]

Clearly, politicians use the word "terrorism" for anything they find undesirable. Simply word-smithing. Real terror is the violent, usually desperate, targeting of known innocents for intended political gain. (Formal definitions usually include elements of danger to life, illegality, coercion and intimidation). Overuse of potent words ultimately has a desensitising/dilutional effect. Just like too many booms near the unprepared individual partially deafens previously-sensitive ears.

 

 

“By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.”

― Adolf Hitler

[Bobosan]

In keeping with the original topic, whatever restrictions the EU puts in place, the black market will overcome, albeit pricier. From what I read here from some of our EU members, their pyro activities are illegal even before these newest restrictions.

 

I always get a kick out of the supposed US "drug war" yet our kids see drugstores on every corner not to mention mom and dad's medicine cabinet. At least in the UK they call them by the classy name, apothecary.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Bobosan

[Peret]

Yeah, thats a weird way for things to work... We have an upcoming election this year. Well, 2 really. We are supposed to elect Swedens new EU representatives, which people are all "meh" about, motivation being mostly "i don't like EU anyway" and then the vote for government.

 

If they only knew that if they are only going to vote in one of the elections, voting in the EU one is a lot more important then the other one... Oh well. Makes my vote carry more weight. Sadly, when it comes to "most" things, like our toys, most parties are in agreement that it's bad one way or another.

B!

I don't think they're in agreement about very much. In fact, I think that's the whole problem. There are so many small groups from different nations that there are no strong blocks able to wield influence. When the unelected masters at the EU Commission hand down a directive, the European Parliament obediently rubber-stamps it because they can't agree not to. I only recall one occasion when the Parliament grew a set of balls and refused a directive, and that's when they refused to ratify ACTA as they'd been ordered to.

 

The one group that's been able to get it together transnationally is the Greens. They can do pretty much whatever they like because there's no organized opposition to their openly admitted policy of bringing an end to industrial civilization. When the whole continent is shivering in the dark eating raw turnips because there's no electric power, I expect the people will rise up and make some changes. Hello, spirit of 1789.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Peret

[Mia]

UKIP