AzoMittle Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 Hey guys so I was making some stars and realized I have no shells to put them in. I have some paper mache formers drying right now but those take a lot of time and work and tend to break unreliably so I was looking around for other options and noticed that I have boxes and boxes of those cheap and simple bulb christmas ornaments, some made of glass and some made of plastic. Is it safe to use these or is the glass a hazard? I already googled and couldn't find any reference to anyone using christmas ornaments for shells. Other problem will be figuring out the pasting, wheat pasted kraft paper just slides right off (going to try hitting them with a coat of primer or maybe sandpaper, something to give texture, or perhaps taping), also going to need to experiment with the number of layers. I already tried a 3" plastic ornament with no reinforcement at all and it did burst but the stars didn't go more than a few feet.
nater Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 Don't use glass. Do you want shards of thin glass all over your shoot site? People use film canisters, easter eggs, all sorts of things. In my opinion, nothing beats paper. Have you considered cylinder shells if you do not want to buy hemis or make then yourself? Formers can be anything that is a cylinder and the right size.
Mumbles Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 Glass is absolutely a hazard. Both practically and environmentally. Have you considered just making cylinder shells? The casings are easily homemade. The alternate is to be less impatient and just buy more casings or wait for yours to dry.
AzoMittle Posted March 4, 2014 Author Posted March 4, 2014 I haven't considered cylinders, I will try them. Glass is off the list. Nater, I've used both easter eggs and film canisters myself With most consumer cameras being digital they're getting harder to find though, I think I might go to a film shop and just ask for their refuse. I came upon the idea of ornaments because I was using them as a former for paper hemis and thought 'You know these look a lot like what I am putting all this effort in to make'. Skylighter hemi's cost $1.50 each w/ S&H, not ridiculous but also something I can make myself; besides I don't make many shells to begin with, mostly due to limited chances to shoot thanks to heavy local regulations.
mikeee Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Azo, You can make small cylinder shells out of newspaper or kraft paper. Save your chipboard cartons and make your own end discs.You can always glue several end discs together to make a thicker heavier end disc when needed.Wood dowels or plastic pipe can be used as a case former. You can use visco fuse on the smaller shells but you will want to prime the fuse to make sure it ignites from the lift charge.Read some of the Fulcanelli articles on building cylinder shells and you will see how easy it is to make the small ones.The larger shells get more complex to build and require more skill.
AzoMittle Posted March 6, 2014 Author Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Azo, Read some of the Fulcanelli articles on building cylinder shells and you will see how easy it is to make the small ones. So I've been doing some homework on cylinder shells and am following the Fulcanelli article on basic cylinder shells using all the same dimensions (trying a 3") and trying to keep paper/string as close as possible given what I have (and adjusting where need be) but I was wondering if I should compensate for my slow BP somehow? As in should I use less pasting/spiking? Should I use fewer stars to make space for extra burst? My BP isn't horrible but it's not hot either, I still need to build a ballmill, right now I'm using commercial airfloat. I'm afraid I don't have any empirical data but if you want me to do any kind of burn test I can get that back to you. I should also mention that I don't have any (per)chlorates at the moment (though I suppose I could order them) and don't feel comfortable working with flash. edit: Just wanted to also say thank you, I love the APC community, you guys are so helpful Edited March 6, 2014 by Mumbles
Jakenbake Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 If you have an old baseball laying around see how high 5 grams of your granulated BP launches it.
nater Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Those magazine articles are copyrighted and still available from a few sellers. Please respect the authors and publisher buy buying them rather than stealing.
AzoMittle Posted March 6, 2014 Author Posted March 6, 2014 Nater, I wasn't aware of that, but a google search shows that the article is for sale through Skylighter and American Pyro Supply. The google search returns nearly only free scanned pdf's and I actually had to try to find a non-free source. In addition, while I would normally agree with you (and even intended to buy the article despite already having a free copy) I am not willing to pay $60/$40 (respectively via those 2 sources) for a tutorial on basic cylinder shells. Especially considering that the article was published in 1984 and is marked on the cover as having a recommended price of $20; no offense to you Nater, Fulcanelli, or the publisher but when you are an unemployed and nearly broke while putting yourself through college those 60 dollars you are giving Harry Gilliam represent a week's worth of groceries. To be honest I doubt that Fulcanelli sees a single dollar of those sales; and to be totally honest I can't even find proof for the existence of an A. Fulcanelli anywhere besides as an author's pseudonym for an anonymous esoteric french author from the 1920's who's name is a portmanteau of Vulcan (the god of fire) and El (a name for the Judeo-Christian god). For those that do wish to purchase the article, and I encourage you to do so, you can find it here: http://www.skylighter.com/pyrotechnica-9.htm for $60 or at http://www.americanpyrosupply.com/PYROTECHNIC_BOOKS_DVD-PYROTECHNICA_VOL_IX.html for $40
Mumbles Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Fulcanelli is in fact a pen name. I do however know both the actual author and editor personally. This isn't a cheap hobby. For what it's worth, with inflation, $20 in 1984 would now cost $43.51, so you're getting a deal from AFN.
nater Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Fulcanelli is in fact a psuedonym which was used by some alchemists in the past. That choice of name was certainly intentional by the author(s) who wish to remain anonymous. The two papers are far more in depth than "a tutorial on basic cylinder shell" and document the construction techniques of the commercial Italian-American companied. Some quite complex effects with multibreak shells are included, effects you will rarely find at a commercial display any more. No offence to you, but when you are unemployed, broke and putting yourself through college, is a relatively expensive hobby like this the wisest move? I have been there, except for the unemployed part. Paying for coege and rent was tough, I worked different jobs in a couple of restaurants to ensure I at least got a hot meal when I worked. Hobbies take a back seat, especially expensive ones. Education and living expenses were much more important. There are other sources, you can buy all the issues of Pyrotechnica from Prometheus Publications at face value. Also, the techniques described in those articles are well docemented by other people on several pyro forums. If you have specific questions, just ask and someone will answer them. I do not like the culture of this site that expects knowedge to be free or else it is okay to steal it. People have worked hard to produce these articles and books. The ones that are still for sale deserve the respect of purchasing them. Forums are nice and have many great aspects. I love quick responses and evolving techniques. You do not get that due to the nature of print publications. However long established methods and how our art was produced in out country is better preserved in print. That takes time and money, when tge product is stolen, where is the motivation for the experts to produce more similar books? Just because a certain book is pirated and easily found on the internet does not mean you have the right to advertise that publically. Just my two cents.
BrainDamage Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I have seen pl. use toilet paper rolls as a shell stick to paper
Mumbles Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I do agree with everything Nate said. I do my best to be vigilant about taking care of these things. In case it is in anyway unclear, in no way to we support or condone piracy at this forum. I have no qualms about actively banning any individuals who look to twart this objective by regularly posting or suggesting illegal sources for copyrighted material. I'm not saying this is going to happen to you, but please consider this in the future. It's this general attitude that drives away experienced and knowledgeable members from this forum. I constantly talk to people who tell me they love the forum, but can't stand all the immature, lazy assholes. The same thing happens on other free forums. The same thing was happening on rec.pyro. We take for granted the hard work and experimentation that those who came before us put into generating the knowledge and literature we have available to us today. There is a general feeling amongst younger individuals that everything should be free, or at least handed to us on a silver platter. This is not a cheap hobby. If you really want to practice it seriously, there are things that must be purchased. I consider legitimate literature to be as mandatory as simple tools and a basic supply of chemicals. I run this forum and keep it open to the public and devoid of ads out of the goodness of my heart and donations of some very generous members. I did pay for it entirely out of pocket for the first 8 years or so though. I love this hobby, and I feel it's important to have a stepping stone into it without having to pay the entrance fee just to test the waters. With that, if you feel you it's for you, then it's your responsibility to do the research and reading to obtain a solid foundation. A lot of this can be done with minimal cost on the internet now through legitimate sources by people who have donated their time and knowledge to helping people. I wont lump myself in with Danny Creagan, Ned Gorski, Wouter Visser, Dan Williams, Mike Swisher, Lloyd Sponnenburgh etc. who have published a great deal of this information, but there is a difference between putting out knowledge of your own and stealing the work of others who did not want it distributed. I generally have a good grasp on things. Seeing the attitude that everything should be freely available gives me absolutely zero motivation to ever put anything into print. As it is, I'm surprised I've had the motivation to type out informative replies here for so long. If you really don't think it'll cost anyone money I can assure you that is not true. For one, you are costing me money personally. Not money I use to buy groceries or pay personal bills, but money I use to run the forum. By supporting a notion that this forum is full of immature, unmotivated, lazy individuals you're driving away the dedicated knowledgeable people that are in general the most likely to donate and support us. I say all of this as a 27 year old person in college who has the same financial hardships as many. Keep an eye on ebay, the Agora here, and for-sale sections on other pyrotechnic websites (passfire.com and fireworking.com most notably), and often you can find second hand copies of much of the literature for reduced costs. That's what I did to generate my library, so I assure you it's a viable option.
Arthur Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 This is not a hobby for those who can't afford it! Once you cut corners something goes WRONG and you put yourself in harms way. There are threads on here about people getting burned, and there are videos on the web of shells passing right through sheets of ply. Please pay attention to the best workers, and follow the best safety guidelines. How much do you value your hands?
nater Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 To make cylinder shells with a minimal investment, you could follow the technique written up by Jim Biersach in the PGI Anthology Article "Non-Standard Three-Inch Cylinder Shell Construction with Rising Whistle" Page #235 on my second edition copy. If you don't have this book, it is probably the best $60 investment in pyro literature. For this shell, the casing is rolled from a paper grocery bag around a can of pop. The first wrap is rolled dry, the remaining wraps are brushed with a 50/50 mixture of white glue and water. It uses standard end discs and a spolette or time fuse. You can use any chipboard from a tablet backing, case of pop or cereal box as a liner inside the shell casing. The shell is filled, solid disc put in place and the end of casing pleated over the disc and taped in place. This shell is wrapped with masking tape and then spiked with string. A lift bag with passfire to leader is installed and the shell is finished with a dry wrap. Obviously, that paragraph is condensed and I will not copy the article verbatim. I could make one and take pictures along soon as I get a few more things ready for a shoot in May. I won't be able to fire anything before then. With Jim's method, you don't need anything special. Just white glue, recycled kraft, end discs, butcher twine, masking tape, stars, BP and a QM leader.
FlaMtnBkr Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 People always say how expensive making pyro is, which can be true for more advanced shells with colors and various effects. But being disabled for over ten years and not able to work, I just don't have a ton of money for this though I do spend more than I should because it makes me happy. On the other hand, it is pretty amazing how much You can make with a 50 lb bag of KNO3, cheap sulfur, home made charcoal, paper grocery bags and some glue and string. Add a couple lbs of cheap atomized AL and you can make some really neat stars in addition to just charcoal. You can get fancy and buy various types of fuse to simplify things. For less than a $100 you can make a lot of fireworks if you are resourceful. I would love a new ball mill but mine is nearly ten years old and still works yet cost me almost nothing. The PVC fittings were the only thing that really cost me anything. I found a motor, used scrap conduit as the rollers, found a piece of hose that I glued on for traction. Used bushings instead of bearings (the conduit thru a hole in a scrap piece of hard pressure treated 2x4). And I got lucky and a friend had a belt and both drive pulleys which wouldn't have been very expensive. I used free wheel weights and a tapered brass candle stick holder as a mold for the media. It could be a lot prettier but long as you oil the 'bushings' it won't work much better. Rolling your own tubes it's another thing you can do cheaply if you have more time than money. It doesn't have to be an expensive hobby if you are creative (yet safe!) and don't mind a lot of charcoal effects. I would love a ton of fancy chemicals and tools. But you make do with what you have. Which I think is how a lot of commercial fireworks are made in much poorer countries than the US.
AzoMittle Posted March 7, 2014 Author Posted March 7, 2014 Guys, calm down, I completely agree with you. I was trying to explain why I will not be paying for it at this point in time. Yes, fireworks can be expensive, but that's okay as long as I budget for it far in advance and leave the hobby when I'm not in a position to do so; however impulse buying is not budgeting and I can't decide to go pay for this article just because I found out after viewing it that it's copyrighted, I'm sorry. I never once said I expected anything to be free, while I very much appreciate those authors who CHOOSE to make their works free I also entirely support those that don't. I do budget for pyro literature, just this article was unexpected. I also completely agree with Mumbles that the literature goes hand in hand with basic tools and chemicals. I am currently, and have been for a while now, working to set aside money for Shimizu's Art, Science, and Technique; I'm not here to steal people's work, I mean to support them. Arthur, no one is cutting corners, safety is always on the forefront of my mind. If your concern is the glass shells, then don't worry, that's why I came to ask first; none have been used or will be. If your concern is in line with the others regarding theft of intellectual property, then again don't worry, this was a one time mistake made unintentionally. Mumbles, I haven't been around this hobby long enough to know these people or be aware that the stereotype of lazy and immature was even around beyond 12 year old kids on youtube trying to build weaponry, nor that it drove people away from the forums; I sincerely hope you do not think I fall into that category, I take full responsibility for my actions and mean to pay my full dues to those who have come before. I also appreciate your mentioning that you know Fulcanelli and raising the issue of inflation, it does put my mind at ease about paying either AFN or Harry. Nater, thank you for the resource, I will look into it. FlaMtnBkr, I'm right there with you, in this hobby or others many things can be scavenged and made yourself. It's a great way of cutting costs and I do so whenever is reasonable. If anyone has any other concerns please voice them. 1
nater Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 ... I was trying to explain why I will not be paying for it at this point in time. ...... I can't decide to go pay for this article just because I found out after viewing it that it's copyrighted, I'm sorry.... ...I never once said I expected anything to be free ..... I was trying to explain why I will not be paying for it at this point in time. .. I'm not here to steal people's work, I mean to support them...... I was trying to explain why I will not be paying for it at this point in time. .. ... Mumbles, I haven't been around this hobby long enough to know these people or be aware that the stereotype of lazy and immature was even around beyond 12 year old kids on youtube trying to build weaponry, nor that it drove people away from the forums; I sincerely hope you do not think I fall into that category, I take full responsibility for my actions and mean to pay my full dues to those who have come before. I also appreciate your mentioning that you know Fulcanelli and raising the issue of inflation, it does put my mind at ease about paying either AFN or Harry...... I was trying to explain why I will not be paying for it at this point in time. .. ...If anyone has any other concerns please voice them. Do you see how you sound? Don't expect any help from me.
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