AzoMittle Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 Winokur's #25 glitter formula states not to exceed 8% water content, why? Also, I take it I should add 1-2% boric acid in addition? Winokur #25Potassium Nitrate 52Sulfur 17Charcoal Airfloat 10Aluminium, Flake, bright -325 mesh, 36 micron 6Sodium Bicarbonate 5Iron (III) Oxide, red 5Dextrin 5A silver glitter with fairly large flashes and a medium short tail. No more than 8% water can be used whenmixing. The low usage of expensive metals makes this a very cheap formula ideally suited for comets.
Gunzway Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 It will ruin the glitter effect if you use too much water. So it's really a recommendation, but as you go beyond 8% water Winokur noted the diminished effect. Keeping it around 5 - 8% water gives the composition the ideal consistency for cutting, pumping etc. and reduces the tendency of side reactions to occur such as nitrate/Al which bugger up the effect. Using a solution with 1% boric acid will help negate this reaction. Once again, you don't strictly need to use it. Some of my first memories of pyro was making glitter stars that never seemed to glitter. 1
Mumbles Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 8% is nowhere near wet enough to cut it. You're looking at 2-3x wetter to get to that stage.
DasKapital Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 8% is nowhere near wet enough to cut it. You're looking at 2-3x wetter to get to that stage. That's so true mumbles. I have made win25 and used 6% and pumped the stars. It was like I was pumping relatively dry comp. They stuck together but were still crumbly. They got progressively harder over the coming days and are now like little stones. Very hard indeed. If you were to cut them you would need much much more water. I haven't shot this shell yet so I hope the results are worth the pain of pumping them.
Carbon796 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 " Also, I take it I should add 1-2% boric acid in addition? " No, you should not need to. The formula as stated, does not call for it, and if processed correctly, shouldn't need it.
AzoMittle Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 " Also, I take it I should add 1-2% boric acid in addition? " No, you should not need to. The formula as stated, does not call for it, and if processed correctly, shouldn't need it. I'm not going to disagree with you since I don't know (and am even the one asking the question) but every single source I've seen has said to add 1-2% Boric Acid to Nitrate-Aluminum comps, and that while it's generally not necessary for small batches it would be on the safer side; never seen mention of its effect on the composition but I'm assuming at such a low rate the impact would be minimum. I would also say it is actually rare to see Boric Acid ever listed in a comp, I can't think of any of the top of my head but I have seen a few that list it. Quite frankly I would have ever so slightly retarded stars than be the 1-in-1000 that has their comp randomly ignite. If what I'm guessing at is correct that is. I don't know though and would love some one else's knowledge here.
ddewees Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Some people use it, others don't. TR told me he keeps a gallon of distilled with boric in it, and uses that water in aluminum / nitrate comps.
Gunzway Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Alright, I did some reading and just ignore the whole "don't go over 10%" idea. It's a load of crap. Over-wetting glitter is not detrimental to its effects. Only that more solvent has been noted to cause reactions such as nitrate/Al more frequently. Mike Swisher claims the reaction is a problem with sodium oxalate and flake aluminum in the same composition. He believes these are the main issue and require boric acid. However, I consistently had issues with glitters with no sodium oxalate and with atomised aluminum powder a few years ago and producing heat and noxious smells. I was over-wetting them by A LOT. Bottomline: Make a small batch without boric acid, and if there's a problem -- try it with boric acid. Don't leave it in the sun either because that causes issues, as well as drying boxes potentially. There's a lot of speculation, but there's so many variables to consider for each individual. 8% is nowhere near wet enough to cut it. You're looking at 2-3x wetter to get to that stage. You're right, 8% is too low. I'm willing to bet 12% would cut most though.
Mumbles Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 If a composition was going to react, it'd look a lot like the formula above. It contains flake aluminum and a basic salt (bicarbonate). I guess I mean that it's more prone than normal to react. It possibly would benefit from using boric acid, and this may play a role in the recommendation to use no more than 8% water. I've talked about this before. It's usually not the absolute quantity of water that causes issues, it's the amount of time that the composition stays wet that is the problem. I suspected there would be no problems with using 20% water in the above composition if you could dry it relatively quickly. Once you get below a certain threshold, it's much less likely to cause any issues. That threshold happens to be around 10% in my experience. As far as the cutting water requirements. If you're using a loaf box, you can get away with less. If I'm just making a patty and cutting that, then I start at a baseline of 20% water, and continue wetting from there until I get to a suitable consistency.
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