First try with salicylate fuel

[mabuse00]

I made my first tests with sodium salicylate.

 

With oxichloride I got about 6,8mm/sek, compared to 7,5mm/sek for potassium benzoate (both 76/23 with paraffine oil in spolette tubes).

 

I'm working with very small rockets in 10mm calibre and since I found it impossible to cato them even if the tubes are wrinkled like an accordeon after pressing, there must be potential for more power.

 

 

The salycilate has been milled for 5h at about 10°C, it became a powder, but somehow I feel it's not as fine as my benzoate - I think that's most likely where the flaw is...

 

 

How are your experiences with sodium salicylate compared to benzoates in general, in terms of power?

 

And how do you process your raw salicylate?

 

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

Salicylate should have more power on average than benzoates.

 

How did it behave when you milled it? Did it stick to everything? Even if it didn't you might try drying it out first. Also, a blade type mill like a coffee grinder or a bullet blender might work better than a ball mill. I haven't had the best of luck milling whistle fuels but some are successful. I can't get them as fine as they need to be and aren't as powerful or loud. So I now just try to buy air milled for high quality whistle. It is more expensive but a lot less time and headache.

[mabuse00]

 

So I now just try to buy air milled for high quality whistle. It is more expensive but a lot less time and headache.

That's OK for americans but I dont want to buy from pyro shops. Also even that stuff is often unmilled.

I still have some airfloat benzoate, but on the long run I'll have to mill the fuel myself.

 

 

How did it behave when you milled it? Did it stick to everything?

I read reports of the stuff sticking to the balls ect. but it did not happen. The jar was semi transparent and from what I saw it behaved like it should.

I used relatively light 20mm aluminium oxide based balls - not very effective, but my only leadball set is reserved for BP of course.

 

No effort was made to dry it before or afterwards.

 

I mean, it is dusty somehow, there is at least a fraction of very fine particles in there.

 

Maybe I should mill even longer and try to run the mill in the freezer to get the stuff more brittle.

Edited February 17, 2014 by mabuse00

[FlaMtnBkr]

That is what I found. Some of it was very fine but there was enough coarse to effect power and sound.

 

I think I would try drying it. With the sodium there is surely some amount of water content. It can't hurt. I have an old toaster oven that has a fan to move air that I got for free that works perfect for drying small amounts of chemicals.

 

I have heard speculation that putting the whole mill in a deep freezer would work great. I have tried putting the jar in the freezer but it warmed up quickly. If you have cold winters now could be a good time to mill.

 

People have made good whistle fuel by milling granular material so it is possible. I just didn't have the best luck (or techniques?) .

[mabuse00]

Did some more tests.

 

 

My potassium benzoate fuel without any catalyst did only 5,2mm/sek. However the power loss in a rocket - compared to oxychloride or iron oxide doped fuel is not very big. A little less loud maybe.

 

The salicylate fuel is faster at normal atmospheric pressure, but does not seem to accelerate much under pressure.

 

The difference is extreme. My salicylate rockets reluctantly left the launchpad and made a lazy ascent, while the even the uncatalised benzoate fueled ones loaded with at least 3x the AUW went like bullets.

 

The sound is almost identical. But I'm not interested in sound so much, I want reliable workhorses to get things airborne.

 

 

Edit:

by judging the attaches file, does that sound like salycilate for you?

Maybe the seller tricked me with sodium benzoate.

Edited February 27, 2014 by mabuse00

[FlaMtnBkr]

It would probably be hard to tell by sound since there are quite a few things that can effect the sound. Maybe you can look up the solubility of the 3 main whistle fuels and determine what it is by how much dissolves in water?

 

Check out this website to get an idea of power with different catalysts (though they probably aren't a catalyst in the true sense of the word).

 

 

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rockets/whistletests.html

[mabuse00]

I studied this site of course. From the given data one could assume that salicylate does not behave much different.

 

I tried to dry my stuff at about 150°C, but it did not loose any weight. I'll try to mill that with a little SiO2 added and reduced ballmill charge. If that fails I'll try the kitchen blender.

 

 

Please check out the pictures, does that look like salicylate to you?

 

[leedrill]

yes is exactly the same look to it as the salicylate i buy and both benzoates never seem to come in that structure let alone that colour ect ect but id have to say in my opinion it is sali but one never knows really untill it is tested

[FlaMtnBkr]

It looks like from the data in that link I provided, that the numbers are all over the place depending on the catalyst.

 

When I said salicylate was more powerful I was basing that off Steve LaDuke and his rockets. He finds the sali whistle to be quite a bit more powerful than benzoates. That is probably based on the catalyst he uses and his tooling. But it looks like you can make all of them very hot by choosing a different catalyst.

 

I still think getting the fuel into a very fine particle size is key to getting a powerful whistle mix.

 

Since you are using less dense milling material, I would make sure you have the optimum mill loading and I would expect longer mill times to be necessary. Maybe you can break the flakes up in a blade mill and then finish it in the ball mill. And dry material and colder will probably help it stick less. It might take extended milling times to get it as fine as is needed?

 

Edit: from a quick search it looks like at 20 deg C:

Sodium salicylate solubility is 1000 g / 1L

Potassium benzoate 660g / 1L

Sodium benzoate 650g / 1L

 

So you should be able to tell if it is salicylate just by how much will dissolve in 10 or 100 ml of water.

Edited March 16, 2014 by FlaMtnBkr

[mabuse00]

Small Update:

I found time to try it with the blender and ten minutes seem to have done more than 5h in the ballmill.
Now I get usable motors, but still not as much power as with the benzoate.

 

 

It looks like from the data in that link I provided, that the numbers are all over the place depending on the catalyst.

Yes but it also says about that oxychloride will give at least good performance with any benzoate or sodium salicylate. The catalyst is not the important issue here, the fineness is really the problem. But I'll try the iron oxides too, sometime...

 

 

Maybe you can break the flakes up in a blade mill and then finish it in the ball mill. And dry material and colder will probably help it stick less. It might take extended milling times to get it as fine as is needed?

 

Yes, that's what I intend to do. What a hassle...
How do you feel about adding a little SiO2?

 

 

The difference between the well milled and the not so well milled batch - and I worked very carefully on these tests - was noticable in the motor only. Without pressure, in a spolette, the difference in burn rate i measured was nil.

 

 

I wish I spent my money on pre milled K-benzoate. Saves a lot of work.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

If it is fumed silica, such as cab-o-sil, then a small amount would probably help with some of the stickiness issues. 0.5 % is used for many applications but it may take a bit more, like 1 % or more. But once in whistle mix it would just be a fraction of a percent and I doubt will hurt performance much, if at all.

 

Be aware that SiO2 can act as a high temp oxidizer. But it would probably take magnesium temps and would not be easy to get going.

 

Another thing you can do is add your catalyst of choice, and a small amount of the perchlorate to help the fuel become free flowing and break up better while milling. If you only add 10-20% of the perchlorate the mixture won't be flammable, but you will have to do some experiments to make sure you are well below the amount that it becomes flammable. You also have to take good notes and label everything well so you don't end up with an unknown mix that you can't use.

 

Many people focus on the quality of the perchlorate for high performance whistles. In my experience the fuel particle size makes a bigger impact on performance, especially sound. I find it is worth it to buy air milled material. At least until I can figure out a way to deal with coarse material. But so far I haven't had much luck and it is far cheaper to buy it when you factor in time, loses, electricity, etc.

[mabuse00]

Thank you for your opinion.

 

I find it is worth it to buy air milled material. At least until I can figure out a way to deal with coarse material. But so far I haven't had much luck and it is far cheaper to buy it when you factor in time, loses, electricity, etc.

I agree.

Only problem for me (and i think this applies for many people) is that I cannot pursue my hobby in compliance with the law. Everything I do is illegal. So the best survival strategy is to simply avoid dedicated pyrodealers and try to work with food additives ect. Even if it's much more work. One must try to think positive - a least it's an interesting challenge

[FlaMtnBkr]

I have heard, but have not tried, that some whistle fuels can be dissolved in water. Then the other parts added, riced, and allowed to dry. Supposedly, it will dissolve a coarse material and dry more finely dispersed. I would assume it would then be processed as normal with oil.

 

Might be worth a shot.

[mabuse00]

Did some tests meanwhile.

20min in the blender, 5h in the mill. I also used bigger balls this time. Now it makes a difference.
I still had some visible white dots, it's obvious that there are still larger particles present.


I got

8,2mm/s with red iron oxide
11,1mm/s with brown iron oxide
8,1mm/s with oxichloride

For comparison, with benzoate I got

7,2mm with red iron oxide
7,8mm with brown iron oxide
7,5mm with oxichloride

(Pressed in spoletta tubes, filmed and clocked using a stopwatch)
I repeated the tests a few times and the results where consistent, the samples diviated no more than 0,2mm/s. I post the average values.

However, lacking a testbench I have no means to determine what happens under pressure/in the motor. A strand burner apparatus with pressure chamber like Mr. Nakka describes would be nice, but I'm just dreaming here
And just whatching the rockets fly can be very deceptive...

In my little 10mm motors the brown iron oxide seems to catch fire faster and also launches faster. The little rockets where brought to an an AUW of 105g with sand and the testfuel was used for the whole grain - normally I would use some slower fuel for the delay, with salicylate/brown iron oxide the delay is to short of course (the tubes are to short...).


So far I can conclude that

-with my equipment salicylate makes practically little difference compared to benzoate - except when brown iron oxide is used.

-brown iron oxide also seems to be superior to oxichloride when used with benzoate, but the difference is less than with salicylate.

[kaotch]

@Mabuse

What I am doing to make very powerful Whistle :

Make sure that all your ingredients are as fine as possible . Put your ingredients ,WITHOUT THE KCLO4 , into a good quality blade blender , adding abt. 2% petroleum

jelly (Vaseline) and let it spin (pulsating) for abt. 1 minute. Remove from your blender and mix in the perc. Well stored in a low humidity environment it can be held for

more than a year. No use for naphta , thinner etc.

Happy Whistleling.

[dagabu]

 

...So far I can conclude that

-with my equipment salicylate makes practically little difference compared to benzoate - except when brown iron oxide is used.

-brown iron oxide also seems to be superior to oxichloride when used with benzoate, but the difference is less than with salicylate....

 

Interesting findings since unanimously, those that have made both Salicylate and Benzoate whistle using the same catalyst find the Salicylate to provide much greater thrust.

[mabuse00]

It applies for my chems and equipment. That means soapflake salicylate that has to be milled to be useful.

 

What I want to say is that my salicylate is a little faster than benzoate right now, but it obvious that I cannot exhaust it's full potential due to improper milling. If you have perfect airmilled Salicylate at your disposal - different story.

If anybody here has a european source for that, please let me know.

 

 

 

Much more interesting is the fact that brown iron oxide seems to be superior to oxichloride with benzoate.

Can anybody comment on that?

[Mumbles]

 

Interesting findings since unanimously, those that have made both Salicylate and Benzoate whistle using the same catalyst find the Salicylate to provide much greater thrust.

 

I understand that this is the general consensus amongst most people. I've always been curious as to why Danny Creagan's test largely refute that claim though. Basically across the board (except with red iron oxide), benzoate tends to out perform salicylate.

[Maserface]

I've always wondered if his tests weren't fair to either fuel in terms of core design. Someday I will quantify all his data using a digital test stand, and varying core designs.

 

Danny himself told me that many of those tests were iffy, (eg the red iron oxide was impure)

[californiapyro]

Milling those fuels is truly a pain... The best luck I've had in dealing with coarse fuels like that is dissolving them, adding the perc, catalyst, and phlegmatizer, and then evaporating off the solvent to get a finished fuel.

 

If you want, too, I can ship super-fine milled Potassium and Sodium Benzoate, and Sodium Salicylate, anywhere in the world, discreetly labeled as the food preservative it is

[Maserface]

Milling those fuels is truly a pain... The best luck I've had in dealing with coarse fuels like that is dissolving them, adding the perc, catalyst, and phlegmatizer, and then evaporating off the solvent to get a finished fuel.

 

If you want, too, I can ship super-fine milled Potassium and Sodium Benzoate, and Sodium Salicylate, anywhere in the world, discreetly labeled as the food preservative it is

Amen to "milling is a pain" - I had to mill it down near zero degrees in the middle of winter, but even so it requires special attention or it clumps.

 

I could use a little "preservative" now that you mention it!

[hindsight]

I am spoiled and could use a little preservative, too. Hunter, PM me about how much for how much, it is not too much to ask.

[layedbackkustomz]

Maybe try this for sali.

from Steve La Duke

potassium perchlorate 76

sodium salicylate 23

red iron oxide 1

Vaseline 1-2-3-4 1 part being fastest 4 being slowest

mill components separate into as fine of powder as possible mill perc and sali then use laquer thinner to dissolve Vaseline. mix perc, sali and red iron oxide together in a plastic bowl. Then add the laquer thinner with your part or parts of Vaseline to mixture. using a rounded wood dowl use force and crush the mix together adding more laquer thinner as you need so mixture doesn't dry out too much. think play dough. once everything is mixed completely EX. NO white specks in bowl. then rice it though a screen. spread it out on paper and dry in the sun for a hour. then use it to press rockets. If you used the same comp but used sodium benzoate and mixed the same way it will be less powerful as the sali.

just to point out Steve La Duke use's Swedish Perc. but this info is from his video and the handout from the 2000 pgi convention for small whistle rockets. hope maybe this will help -LBK-

[dagabu]

 

I understand that this is the general consensus amongst most people. I've always been curious as to why Danny Creagan's test largely refute that claim though. Basically across the board (except with red iron oxide), benzoate tends to out perform salicylate.

 

With all due respect, I believe that every one of the persons that fly whistle rockets I have spoken with in manufacturing at PGI, on Passrire and even Nski all agree that all variables being the same, Sali has a lot more power than Benzo.

[nater]

I have found Sodium Salicylate to be more powerful than the benzoates, if you compare them on the same spindles. I can press benzoate whistle on a longer spindle and end up with a powerful motor. I have not compared thrust between a short cored sali motor and a long cored benzoate motor to know which one is actually more powerful. I find sodium salicylate to be a pain to work with and I do not intend to buy more when my current supply is exhausted. I bought some potassium and sodium benzoate bulk for dirt cheap, so I have a long supply of fuel for low cost whistles anyway. Cheaper and easier to work with makes up for needing to use a few more grams of fuel in a motor.