Cylinder Shell Lift and Break

[Wiley]

I'm a little confused about the canulle size for 3" can shells. Skylighter's table says that anywhere from 3/4" to 1" diameter is good (I'm assuming that's with 2FA), but this article (http://www.wpag.us/learn/Non-Standard%203%20inch%20Cylinder%20Shell%20Construction.pdf) uses a 1/2" or 3/4" canulle and 4FA. Which size and which powder gives a nice break from a 3" shell? Does the 1/2" canulle create any more than a sky-dump?

 

I'd like to make 2" and 3" multibreaks (hopefully up to 3 color breaks and a report--someday), so would using Fg (equivalent to commerical 4FA) work for the lift, or would it be to violent for these heavy shells?

 

Would 4FA equivalent function as a good burst powder, and if so, can you make any recommendations as to the proper canulle size for a soft, yet symmetrical break, similar to this?

Edited February 12, 2014 by Wiley

[Mumbles]

Jim's class was actually one of the first I took when I joined the WPAG. One clarification. Jim mentions 1/2 or 3/4" copper pipe. Copper pipe is measured by the OD, but not in the most sensible way. Nominally 1/2" copper pipe has 5/8" OD, and 3/4" copper pipe has 7/8" ID, so they're not far off from what's recommended from the Skylighter table, which is probably originally from Fulcanelli. I personally prefer a little larger canule, so I'd go between 7/8" and 1" with your 1Fg BP, at least to start.

 

1Fg should be fine for lift. Multi-break shells in the sizes you mentioned shouldn't exceed 2lbs total. I've lifted 3" three-breaks and cylinder shells as heavy as you'd be making with 1Fg before successfully. You might want to make sure your shells are built with care just in case.

 

Good luck, and don't be afraid to share videos.

[Wiley]

Thank you Mumbles. I will certainly post some videos once I start making things worth sharing.

[psyco_1322]

There really isn't a set rule to canulle sizes, it's really just what works for your methods. I break mine with F dusted, bp rice hulls. I use a ~5/8" ID canulle, it's really a tube I rolled around a piece of 1/2" NEPT. I also mix some of the bp hulls among the stars to replace polverone. With the hulls in the stars and the 5/8" canulle of hulls, I get a nice break and so that's what I use. Do remember to actually paste the shells after you spike them. I don't really suggest shooting shells with out the proper pasted outer wrap.

[Wiley]

I just finished pasting a dummy 1.5" bottom shot using a hand rolled casing. I followed this method ( but i used a continuous strip of posterboard instead of the short lengths of chipboard. Though it's diameter is a bit undersized, and I failed to forsee how much length the thick, stacked end disks would add, it wasn't hard to make, and the result seems to have plenty of integrity, at least along its vertical axis. If you squeeze the sides, you can feel a slight bit of "give." It isn't rock hard, but it isn't mushy either. I assume it will get a bit harder once the paste wrap dries. Is this ever-so-slight squishiness normal for this style of report, or should it feel like a block of concrete?

 

Mine was loaded with salt, so I used my thumb to gently compress the salt once the inner bag was folded down. I did the same thing after sprinkling some fine sawdust into the recess which folding the bag down had created. If that salt were 70:30 flash, would it be acceptable to press on it a bit, or is gentle pressure even needed to maintain the integrity of the report?

Edited February 13, 2014 by Wiley

[nater]

You will get better at rolling the bottom shots with practice. They will firm up after pasting and should not be soft. I was taught to roll the "book" a little oversided from your discs to allow for the compression until you get the knack of rolling them very tightly from the beginning. Edited February 13, 2014 by nater

[Wiley]

This one is quite solid already, and it's not even completely dry. It was a first attempt of course, so I assume they will improve. That is a good tip about the end disks though; I remember that one from Fulcanelli.

 

What do you think about the filling procedure that I mentioned in my previous post?

 

And another one that just occurred to me: can you use 75:15:10 green mix (screened, wetted, and granulated w/o binder) to ram reliable spolettes, or does it have to be ballmilled?

[angelluis]

I'm a little confused about the canulle size for 3" can shells. Skylighter's table says that anywhere from 3/4" to 1" diameter is good (I'm assuming that's with 2FA), but this article (http://www.wpag.us/learn/Non-Standard%203%20inch%20Cylinder%20Shell%20Construction.pdf) uses a 1/2" or 3/4" canulle and 4FA. Which size and which powder gives a nice break from a 3" shell? Does the 1/2" canulle create any more than a sky-dump?

 

I'd like to make 2" and 3" multibreaks (hopefully up to 3 color breaks and a report--someday), so would using Fg (equivalent to commerical 4FA) work for the lift, or would it be to violent for these heavy shells?

 

Would 4FA equivalent function as a good burst powder, and if so, can you make any recommendations as to the proper canulle size for a soft, yet symmetrical break, similar to this?

Well I made this one and I used 1 1/4" canulle with 2fa for the break no booster. When I use a booster I use a 3/4" canulle with 1.5 grams of flash for my 3" canister shells. With 4fa the bp burns faster in my opinion, so you get a stronger break also the size of the canulle plays a roll in it. Now I am not a expert but through trial and error this is what works for me. Also like mumbles said I also prefer a bigger canulle.

[schroedinger]

Hi

You can make spoletes with green mix, but you will get much more reliable one's using ball milled bp.

For good timing use ball milled one and make 1-2 test spolette per batch, or better make ine batch oc bp and make up all the spolettes you need in the near future. So you get a consistent timing

[Wiley]

I see. I'll just stick with time fuse. Angelluis, is that 1.5g of booster, 70:30, or is it something slower?

 

I think I'll use 1" ID, 1/8" wall tubes for my 2" bottomshot cores for the sake of consistency. Once heavily spiked and pasted, the 1.25" OD of these tubes should be about 1.5," which is what I want. Is that amount of buildup a realistic prediction, and will these tubes be stout enough for use as bottomshot cores?

Edited February 14, 2014 by Wiley

[BrainDamage]

nice shells

[Mumbles]

Those tubes should be good for bottom shots. They should be right about the correct size for bottom shots once spiked and pasted. When doing hard-walled bottomshots, some people will just roll the final break directly over the top of the bottom shot (sometimes pasted), and rely on the spiking and pasting of the combined break to reinforce it. I've done this and it has worked for me, but I'm not as comfortable with this, as I like the bottomshot to be well reinforced with it's own dedicated spiking and pasting.

 

I'd also disagree that green mix can be used to make a reliable and dependable spolette. I mean this in a functionally adequate way, not physically possible way. There is too much slag, and too much variability in burn rate for my tastes.

[schroedinger]

Well thats the same i wrote, green mix won't be accurate

[WonderBoy]

Your filling method sounds fine. When filling bottom shots I will usually settle the flash as I load it by lightly "bouncing" or tapping the casing, then when folding in the inner bag the flash gets slightly compressed. I then fill any space made by folding the inner bag with sawdust before dropping in the end disk.

 

Your casing should feel pretty firm, be sure to apply a lot of pressure as you roll it.

http://youtu.be/nXA4mstpjBc?t=1m24s

 

For small shells, up to 3" I usually use timefuse simply to save space in the shell. But I still like having a big flash of fire into the shell, so I make a "faux spolette" using the timefuse, by either tying QM directly on the end of the TF of if the timing is pretty short I glue the TF into a 1/4" tube, fill it with BM and tie off like you would a spolette.

 

 

WB

[Wiley]

Thanks for the info Wonderboy. For now I'll definitely stick with hard-walled bottom shots since the tubes are cheap and they afford a level of consistency that hand-rolled bottom shots would not (for me).

 

For those of you who have made this size of aerial report (1" ID, ~1" long on the inside), how does the noise compare to consumer 60 gram canister shell (e.g. Excalibur, Big Fireworks Pro Shells, etc)? In terms of loud reports, about the loudest I've heard is my 2" salute cannon loaded with ~6 ounces of 3Fg BP, but that's probably just because I'm relatively close to it (about 100-150 feet). Though there are significant differences in noise from an aerial vs. a ground based report, I'd like to avoid making much more noise than my cannon, if I can help it.

[nater]

A 1" ID by 1" tall flash filled bottom shot will be louder than a consumer canister shell. If you want to keep the noise to a minimum, consider a Sfera break in lieu of the bottom shot.This would be something like a spiderweb break rather than a report. Or use hot granulated BP instead of flash, keeping the rest of the bottom shot building technique the same.

[Wiley]

It doesn't matter if it is louder, just so long as it's not "twice" as loud, if you catch my meaning. I've attached a video of my cannon firing at night if you're interested. It's noisy for sure.

 

When making these hard-tube reports, is it OK to attach the end disks with hot glue, or is it absolutely necessary to use "wet" glue? I know Psycho uses lots of hot glue on his inserts, and others (dagabu was one) sealed some reports with hot glue, but I would like to know if it is an acceptable/commonplace method.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Wiley

[Mumbles]

I know Psyco knows how I feel about his love of hot glue. While I do smear white or wood glue on the edge of the casing, it doesn't necessarily be allowed to dry. I do it more to seal it off from flash getting in there than to actually adhere anything. I'm sure some traditionalists would scoff at the idea, but I sit the disk on there, and secure it with a few strips of masking tape. From there I'll spike and paste it in at my leisure, whether the glue has had time to dry or not. It'll dry eventually along with the pasting.

 

It's hard to tell how loud it'll be. I'd suggest firing a salute along with a time commonly accepted for commercial shells. You can always claim you got a bad one if anyone asks. They'll be pretty loud, but more often it's the concussion wave that draws more attention. The windows shaking or car alarms going off tend to draw more attention than just the noise.

[Wiley]

That's an interesting point, since the professional 4th of July display is fired very near my house, and they always incorporate a good amount of 2.5" and 3" salutes. Occasionally there will even be a few 4" in there. Never heard a car alarm go off from those. I'll just have to see.

 

Thanks again for all the well-informed responses .

[nater]

One thing that is important to note, commercial Chinese salutes have surprisingly little flash in them and it is often made with a lower quality aluminum. Often there is just a flash bag inside the ball shell and a fair amount of empty space.

[Wiley]

Ah, I suppose I could have guessed. I seem to remember that 1.3G product can't have any more than about 70g of flash, otherwise it gets pushed into the realm of 1.1G. But, based on what you said, it's not likely that they actually contain that much.

[Wiley]

I just discovered this article on Skylighter: http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/Hand-Mixed-Black-Powder.asp

 

Could this method of manufacture result in BP that would work to pop open a 2" canister shell? That burn test shows some pretty darn fast powder, considering it's un-milled state. If it will in fact work by itself, I'd bet that with a small vitamin F supplement it could work quite nicely.

 

Even more interesting are the photos from Old Glory Powder Co. which state that they use this "hand mixed" black powder to burst their cylinders. I just sent them an email to see if this is a fact. Though I respect Ned's advice highly, it just seems too good to be true, so in my mind, there's a chance that it might not be true. I sure hope that it is though.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Wiley

[Mumbles]

That method on skylighter depends on getting very fine materials. I've just never been able to get it fine enough with a coffee grinder. If you have a ball mill it would work though, if you're nervous about milling a live composition. Wonderboy, Psyco1322, and myself have been working on a method to lift and break shells without using any milled powder. If you can use a polverone made from a reactive charcoal and very finely milled materials, it's easy for burst. If you're using less finely milled materials and commercial airfloat, it needs a little booster as you mentioned.

[Wiley]

I only have a coffee grinder to grind my chemicals. I can get my KNO3 quite fine--good enough to make very effective nitrate flash--but it's not baby powder fine. When I rub it between my thumb and forefinger, I can feel a slight amount of grittiness. I can't see any of these particles, so they must be very small, but still not small enough to feel perfectly smooth. I do have access to red cedar and a variety of other reactive charcoals, so I'll give it a go and see how it works.

 

Oh, and one more quick question. Is ponderosa pine ("yellow pine") considered a "reactive charcoal," or is it a bit on the slower side of things? That's the only tree that grows naturally here, so I have tons of it. If it won't work for polverone I could always use it in star comps.

[Wiley]

It may be true that you can't make good quality BP without a ball mill, but lifting a shell with ball-mill free BP is quite feasible. My "BP" consists of the standard 75:15:10 ratio. All the chemicals are milled in a coffee grinder (the nitrate has its own dedicated grinder), and the C/S is milled together in a 60:40 ratio. That way I can just take 75% KNO3 and 25% C/S mix and screen the two together. I pass the mix through a reasonably fine screen (sold as a "splatter guard" screen that comes as a two pack) three times, and shake it in a closed container in between screenings. I've been binding this with smokeless powder (IMR Hi-Skor 700X) dissolved in acetone until it's the consistency of very thick molasses. I then knead in my greenmix until I get a stiff ball of putty. Acetone evaporates quickly, so I may need to add a splash of it to the ball if it starts to dry out. I then granulate the ball through a cheese grater (I use the "small side" maybe 1/16" holes or a little larger) and once spread out in a dry, warm location, the granules are completly dry in about a day. The resulting granules are very fragile, and care must be taken to avoid damaging them in storage and handling.

 

Now comes the fun part. This idea was drawn in part from the Maltese, who use BP "maroons" to loft their giant shells, and a little video on Dan Creagan's site where he showed a fiberglass tape reinforced bag send a 3" baseball out of sight. I roll cylindrical casings as I would for star shells: 2 wraps of .020" chipboard around a 1" former, 4 wraps of masking kraft around that, 1/16" end disks, ends triangle folded shut, and spiked with anywhere from 4 to 16 vertical strands of doubled up #3 crochet thread. For the horizontal spiking, I just make eyeballed squares and it's worked great. I've made these with 5g and 8g of my pulverone, and used them to launch a variety of shells. I thought the results were pretty good. These little lift "maroons" serve as a means of confining the slightly slower powder to build enough pressure for a solid lift, and they do a good job of protecting the grains from getting smashed. The one caveat is that I have to top-fuse all of my shells.

 

Here's a video of my first multibreak cylinder: 1st break had 8 timed reports, 2nd break was a bottom shot. All were filled with 2:1:1 KNO3:dark Al:sulfur report comp. Burst on the first break was the same pulverone I used in the lift charge; no booster.The lift charge was 8g of pulverone in a lift maroon with 16 vertical spikes, just like the one on the left in the first photo. I found that the more string these maroons had, the better. 16 seems just about right for any shell from 35 to 200g. This particular shell weighed just slightly under 90g. You can't see most of the reports or the bottom shot because there's a tree in the way, but you can sure hear them. I was quite pleased with it.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Wiley