Boric Acid?

[MWJ]

Hi everyone,

I makde some basic flare comp.

 

 

75% Potassium nitrate 7.5g
15% Sulfur 1.5g
5% Charcoal 0.5g
5% Al 0.5g

Total: 10g

 

And was inform that I should use Boric acid to prevent a unwanted reaction to store it and I don't know how to use it. Can someone please explain it to me. I know it's a powder but I don't know the ratio of H2o and BA to mix up and how to apply it.

Do I store it wet or let it dry then use/store it. This formula works exactly the way I want it to and don't want to inhibit the burn.

Do I screen it?

 

Thanks

Mike

Edited February 4, 2014 by MWJ

[MWJ]

One more thing. I want to put a piece of Mag strip into the flare tube so it will ignite some thermite. I read that Boric acid reacts with Mag. What does that mean?

[Mumbles]

The real risk of reaction between nitrates and aluminum is while wet, and in an already basic environment. The type of aluminum also plays a role. Fine flake varieties are the worst offenders due to the high surface area. Fine atomized grades are only an issue occasionally. Coarse grades I consider to be a non-issue for all intents and purposes.

 

The formula you provided doesn't have any basic components, like bicarbonates or oxalates. You're good there. You also don't mention what type of aluminum it is. Since you're already at kind of a low risk, you can just add 1-2% dry to the mix to kill all reactions and impart some storage stability. For problem mixtures, it's more effective if you pre-dissolve the boric acid into water. It's not overly soluble, topping out around 5-6%. 150g per gallon of water is what I use, which is a 4% solution. Even then not all of it will dissolve sometimes. Decanting works well enough for me. You don't deliver quite as much boric acid using this method, but it is more intimately mixed. If you choose to make a solution, you'll want to use it just like you would normal water. Use it as the wetting agent for the composition when granulating, or cutting, rolling, or pumping stars.

 

Since you want to make a flare, you'd maybe want to wet the composition, then granulate and dry it. This will get the boric acid in, and also make the composition less dusty to press. Just adding in boric acid and granulating would probably give the same result.

 

As far as the magnesium and boric acid thing, yes they do react. Boric acid dissolved in water will degrade magnesium. It wont be a big problem if the dry composition is in contact with the magnesium, but you shouldn't add any magnesium to the wet composition.

[MWJ]

Thanks Mumbles. That helps a lot. I want to use 500 mesh Al. So I wet the comp like I would BP then dry and screen it?

[Maserface]

Would the magnesium be needed to light thermite? I was looking into making my own flare a couple weeks ago.

[MWJ]

I'm not sure if the mag needs to be there but it can't hurt. I think it takes 3000 degrees F. to ignite thermite and Mag. gets over 5K F. I don't know how hot my flair mix will burn at. Maybe someone here can answer that.

 

I think BP burns at 1400 to 1500 degrees F.

Edited February 5, 2014 by MWJ

[LambentPyro]

I'm not sure if the mag needs to be there but it can't hurt. I think it takes 3000 degrees F. to ignite thermite and Mag. gets over 5K F. I don't know how hot my flair mix will burn at. Maybe someone here can answer that.

 

I think BP burns at 1400 to 1500 degrees F.

 

IIRC, BP's auto-ignition temp that I saw in an MSDS for GOEX said something around 800 degrees F.

 

If you're using straight Mg or if you want to coat MgAl, using Linseed Oil or Potassium Dichromate I heard works well. However, MgAl is pretty stable compared to one of its derivations, Mg. Here on APC, the user, oldguy, took pictures of Mg and MgAl in Ethanoic Acid (Acetic Acid) at a household vinegar concentration and the Mg reacted violently, although, the MgAl did not react at all within hours of sitting in the spoon.

 

However, this does not mean it can't happen. Everybody has different processes and variables and could experience a different result from what they perform.

 

This is probably one of my highest concerns in Pyro, to some it may not be, however to me I see it quite threatening. I hesitate a lot when it comes to using formulas that call for Nitrate-MgAl. Like Bleser White-Strobe, which contains two Nitrates. I cannot use Boric for it because of how it attacks the Mg, and I do not have linseed oil. I also want to stay away from Hexavalent Cr (not like some chems that we use like Barium are any better for us) compounds. Also, I've heard some nasty stories that involve Mg because it's so reactive; for that reason I don't use any formulas that call for it.

 

Overall, I've become pretty comfortable with Nitrate-Al stars as I have gotten the Boric Acid to dissolve in the Water nicely. For MgAl stars, I've hear that people stay away from aqeous binding to not initiate a reaction. For those who are a bit more experienced in that part, is that true?

Edited February 5, 2014 by LambentPyro

[schroedinger]

To ignite thermite, you don't need mg ribbon. Common sparklers work too.

I don't know about metal rich primes, but i could imagine that they would work to.

[LambentPyro]

To ignite thermite, you don't need mg ribbon. Common sparklers work too.

I don't know about metal rich primes, but i could imagine that they would work to.

Using sparklers isn't exactly the safest thing to do. Using visco or time fuse isn't safe either as the sparks can set premature ignition and go up right in your face. Using Mg ribbon allows you to get a way from a mix that reaches 5000 degreas F and will keep it from igniting from the sparks.

[Shadowcat1969]

I'm not sure if the mag needs to be there but it can't hurt. I think it takes 3000 degrees F. to ignite thermite and Mag. gets over 5K F. I don't know how hot my flair mix will burn at. Maybe someone here can answer that.

 

The composition you list above is pretty close to BP, only a little variation. I would think it would ignite using Visco, depending on how you prep the surface you are lighting. Magnesium is almost certainly overboard to ignite this.

 

I would probably suggest a small increment of straight BP pressed as your first increment, then your comp for the rest of the tube. Then use a BP/NC slurry applied to the face with a piece of Visco embedded in the slurry.

[MWJ]

Shadowcat: I'm sorry but I don't know what the NC is in BP/NC.

[Shadowcat1969]

Sorry, one of the hazards of abbreviating common terms. That is why you should always ask if someone uses a term you aren't familiar with.

 

NC = Nitrocellulose. For the Lacquer it is dissolved in and thinned with Acetone.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Shadowcat1969

[MWJ]

I should have known that? I read up on dissolving ping pong balls in acetone on youtube to get NC laq. Is that how to do it. I haven't experimented with that yet. I was looking to make some electric matches with it.

[LambentPyro]

I should have known that? I read up on dissolving ping pong balls in acetone on youtube to get NC laq. Is that how to do it. I haven't experimented with that yet. I was looking to make some electric matches with it.

That's the 'poor-man's' method, it's not efficient at all. Also, that's how to make NC, not NC Lacquer. Ned Gorski has it on YouTube of how he makes NC Lacquer, check it out.

[Shadowcat1969]

I should have known that? I read up on dissolving ping pong balls in acetone on youtube to get NC laq. Is that how to do it. I haven't experimented with that yet. I was looking to make some electric matches with it.

I didn't mean that you should have known that. In Pyro it's a relatively common abbreviation, but you've not be doing it too awfully long, so it's not surprising that you didn't know it. Now you do, and that's a good thing.

 

Using gunpowder, the modern smokeless type, actually gives a much better NC Lacquer. I believe the Green Dot or Red Dot are what others are using. I'm not sure of the proportions or anything, just that that is what they are using.

[Maserface]

That's the 'poor-man's' method, it's not efficient at all. Also, that's how to make NC, not NC Lacquer. Ned Gorski has it on YouTube of how he makes NC Lacquer, check it out.

 

 

Ping pong balls are NC, dissolving them into acetone would make NC lacquer. Neds method uses double base smokeless powder (which contains NC) IIRC.

 

I use pure NC in acetone, and add "prime" to it, mix to soft peaks, and voila!

[nater]

Using double base smokeless powder and acetone is actually Lloyd Sponenburgh's method. Ned's video was detailing Lloyd's instructions.

[MWJ]

Shadowcat: I didn't mean to put a question mark after the "I should have know that" Sorry. I really should have known that because I looked into getting some. I thought it would be in a hardware store because I work with wood a lot and thought it would be there. I like this forum and all of you because I can ask questions and you guys have a lot of patients with newbees and give great answers. Thanks to ALL of you! I don't know where I can get some NC laq. any other way. I did get some ping pong balls to try it I just haven't yet, but I will. I rely on this forum more then I do youtube. I trust you guys more.

[Maserface]

Using double base smokeless powder and acetone is actually Lloyd Sponenburgh's method. Ned's video was detailing Lloyd's instructions.

Sorry, ya I meant Ned's "video" not "his" method.

 

 

I hope you trust APC more than YouTube, mwj, YouTube is bologna

[MWJ]

I trust APC ALOT more then any other info. out there. Thanks. I don't use Youtube as solid info on anything. It just gets me started then when I have any questions I ask you guys. After seeing a guy with a rocket in his butt, really makes me wonder about the human race? He was just assing for trouble. hee hee. Must have been the first al qaeda suicide butt bomber method.

[Coulterbart]

I think you tube serves it's purpose (keep in mind a lot of us put videos on there.)

 

Like with anything else on the internet, you have to use some common sense. I think a lot of the videos are helpful to remind us how dangerous this is and show some new intelligent people what not to do a lot of the times.

 

Of course you always have some idiot that wants to be the next YouTube fad. Those people are going to hurt themselves in any environment. Such as the butt rocket.

[MWJ]

I'm not putting down ALL of the videos on youtube.com. I have seen some of the real nice stuff some of you (LambentPyro) have put on there. I download a lot of them for later info. There is a lot of GOOD info as well as the no so good ones. Anyway this is WAY off the subject.

 

Thank you for all who gave me the time to answer my question about Boric Acid. I just mixed some up and used it to granulate my flair comp. It seems to granulate better than pure H20. Maybe it's just my imagination.

Edited February 7, 2014 by MWJ