KClO3 v KClO4

[ivars21]

I have two options, either buy bag of Perchlorate or two bags of potassium chlorate for the same price, so that made me think - what are the drawbacks using chlorate for stars/burst? I have done enough reading and know that I must not mix acidic sulphur with it, is there any other concern I must consider?

If I am not wrong stars can still be pumped/rolled/cut, right? They just shouldn't be primed with bp or any other prime that contains sulphur (some people argue that it is the best thing to do though). I am not using ammonium so that shouldn't be a concern either.

 

I will appreciate any comments.

Edited January 31, 2014 by ivars21

[asdercks]

I would get the Kclo4, as you can use it for a lot of different stuff like stars, flash, break charges etc. and you wouldn't have to worry too much about incompatibilities.

[ivars21]

You can use kclo3 in stars (commercially used if I am not wrong), OK you shouldn't really use kclo3 in flash, point taken, but then again, you can make H3 which is a great break charge for small shells (less expensive than flash as well).

[LambentPyro]

I second asdercks, KClO4 is relatively safer to use and has many more uses.

[ivars21]

Yes it is safer, but can you please corroborate what other uses KClO4 has that KClO3 hasn't, other than flash?

Edited February 1, 2014 by ivars21

[leedrill]

i will put in my 2cents and say the main advantage you have with kclo4 is safety that is the main use for it { a much safer and more stable oxidiser }

 

yes kclo3 use to be used in a lot of commercial manufacture of items but alas it has been subbed in most cases now days a lot of countries have to see the msds for the imported fireworks and most will not sign off on shipping through customs if chlorates are on that list { not to say the chinese dont lie sometimes due to being able to use a cheaper oxidiser

 

yes it does still get used, and in some cases it is the reason for accidents due to it raising the sensitivity of almost everything it is used in {as opposed to kclo4 that is }

 

with kclo4 you dont really have to worry about moisture as much i would for one not want to use chlorate around any metals {especially fine mesh metals } but i would still be worried even using it in an organic star comp

 

and then id be worried the whole time about using any water activated binder if there was sulfur and kclo3 in the comp or prime to say the least

 

and then ill say one of the main reasons to not use chlorate {yes heat is the main issue } but friction with quite a few organic materials is still a worry and when using chlorate if you have not used it in large quantities it clumps so bad that you almost have to force it through a screen to integrate it properly into a composition it is a pain to use compared to perchlorate

 

anything that can make chlorine dioxide inside of a fused device scares me and i would not consider it worth buying for the half cost

 

how ever there is now some comps im seeing utilising both of them so id say if you really want to get going buy a bag of each i would not consider just using kclo3 for everything

[LambentPyro]

This is exactly why, I just didn't have the time to type it.

 

i will put in my 2cents and say the main advantage you have with kclo4 is safety that is the main use for it { a much safer and more stable oxidiser }

 

yes kclo3 use to be used in a lot of commercial manufacture of items but alas it has been subbed in most cases now days a lot of countries have to see the msds for the imported fireworks and most will not sign off on shipping through customs if chlorates are on that list { not to say the chinese dont lie sometimes due to being able to use a cheaper oxidiser

 

yes it does still get used, and in some cases it is the reason for accidents due to it raising the sensitivity of almost everything it is used in {as opposed to kclo4 that is }

 

with kclo4 you dont really have to worry about moisture as much i would for one not want to use chlorate around any metals {especially fine mesh metals } but i would still be worried even using it in an organic star comp

 

and then id be worried the whole time about using any water activated binder if there was sulfur and kclo3 in the comp or prime to say the least

 

and then ill say one of the main reasons to not use chlorate {yes heat is the main issue } but friction with quite a few organic materials is still a worry and when using chlorate if you have not used it in large quantities it clumps so bad that you almost have to force it through a screen to integrate it properly into a composition it is a pain to use compared to perchlorate

 

anything that can make chlorine dioxide inside of a fused device scares me and i would not consider it worth buying for the half cost

 

how ever there is now some comps im seeing utilising both of them so id say if you really want to get going buy a bag of each i would not consider just using kclo3 for everything

 

[Shadowcat1969]

For my 2 cents as well: KCLO4 "safer" than KCLO3, IMHO Chlorate has too many incompatibilities as well as higher sensitivity to heat, shock, friction.

 

For starting out, I would suggest sticking with Perchlorate and Nitrate. I have found there are more compositions that use those two than use Chlorate. At least compositions that are used currently anyway.

 

After you have built some experience you can then make a more considered and informed choice whether you want to add Chlorate to your repertoire.

[Niladmirari]

I use KClО3 only smoke composition. Оther composition in pyrotechnics can be replaced by KClO4.

[ivars21]

Experience is not really an issue either. I have KClO4 stocked up anyway, so in that matter I will have enough for flash and other stuff where KClO4 is necessary. But when it comes to stars, it would make more sense to use KClO3 for the price tag. It's not like I don't know that KClO3 is more sensitive than KClO4, I am asking what are the other disadvantages?

So far the only disadvantage I can see is clumping, which is so true, it is pain to get rid of clumps in my KClO3.

 

btw, I am not really talking about 100g bags, I am talking about 50kg KClO3 or 25kg KClO4.

Thanks for your input guys.

Edited February 1, 2014 by ivars21

[Dean411]

1 drawback is the use of metals is a no no

 

Chlorate used to be the number 1 color oxidizer and was and still is used for flash by many in the industry.

I personally dont like to use it unless it is necessary for what I am trying to accomplish, being as your from the UK chlorate is much cheaper than perchlorate.

I just have this feeling hanging over me everytime I make something that has chlorate in it from the day its mixed till the day it leaves my magazine and that is a shitty feeling but I used to feel the same way about AP and im over that.

 

so I would say go for the cheaper chlorate just be mindful of what your doing while using as I dont want to see anymore posts about accidents that are pyro related!

 

Cheers

Edited February 1, 2014 by Dean411

[leedrill]

i agree with all that has been said and things like barium carbonate can help to neutralise the sulfuric acid in any sulfur and yes kclo3 is much cheaper but the other problem lies that unless you want to sit down and do some balanced equations kclo3 and kclo4 is not as simple as sub 1:1 and you have a stoichiometric formula { im no chemist and find it much easier to just use tried and tested formulas } even shimzu's FAST dose not use much kclo3 and the change from it happened quite some time ago well for me it seems like old news for a reason that every set of testing done that is documented really speaks for itself

 

ivars21 ill say it seems like you are experienced enough to know the simplest of things quite well such as

not to use pvc and steel not to mix certain things that could easily land you or someone else injured

 

but i see the use of kclo3 the same as things like this

 

some things that use to be standard practice and now { as i mentioned any msds that says kclo3 on it is prohibited from entering our country } {{ not to say it dosnt make it in }}

but is no longer standard practice for a reason

 

you say you have enough kclo4 for things like flash where it is necessary but the fact is it is not necessary

 

this is like saying i have enough kmno4 for flash where it is necessary kclo4 is not necessary for making a bang but is pretty much the safest option we have so it is not necessary for the end result but if you want to be sure the end result ends with you having all 10 fingers and being able to please the misses

 

all that is necessary is the up most safety that is possible

 

i will suggest not buying anything and just sticking with the kclo4 you say you have and stocking up on more if need be

 

im sorry if i come across as if im having a go at you just i dont see any price on safety i also use kclo3 in coloured smoke it is not achievable in the quality i am use to with out

 

but kclo3 has its place in modern pyro comps and so does kclo4 and kclo3 has been phased out slowly for a reason and as you know its not because kclo4 is cheaper its because of laws and past experience in major factories where disasters have been led back to it being the cause

[Peret]

KClO3 delivers more chlorine per weight, so less other chlorine donor is needed for color. Some fuels (like shellac) work better with chlorate, some (like red gum) with perchlorate, so you can't just swap the oxidizer and expect everything else to stay the same. The best advice is to list the star formulae you intend to make, and buy the chemicals you need for them. There isn't much you can't do with perc. I have a couple of pounds of potassium chlorate on hand for when nothing else will do, but that isn't often. However, I do generally use barium chlorate for green stars, as that's a case where once you've seen it in action, nothing else will do. Barium chlorate and red gum alone, no other chlorine donor, gives a spectacular deep green that you can't get any other way.

 

As a final observation, many of the truly spectacular firework disasters have been caused by chlorate stars detonating by shock, a problem that doesn't seem to arise with perc.

[Jonathan]

FWIW, I like to work with NaClO₃ much more than with KClO₃. Sodium chlorate is said to absorb water from the air; but I fend off that problem with dessicant bags and airtight containers.

 

Sodium chlorate will do pretty much everything KClO₃ does and is less sensitive. For example, a great H3 can be made with sodium chlorate and charcoal.

 

Main problem is that it's relatively hard to get.

 

The sodium counterpart to KClO₄ is NaClO₄. I've experimented quite a bit with sodium perchlorate and like it for certain flash and other applications. For example, it produces a powerful flash when mixed even with firestarter Mg powder.

 

What interests me in the sodium molecules is that sodium has a lower atomic weight than potassium. Meaning a proportionally greater amount of oxygen in the sodium molecule.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Jonathan

[schroedinger]

Jonathan, really again this stufu. He's talking about chems for stars and burst. Sodium salts are just usefull in yellow compositions, nowhere else. And making H3 with sodium isn't really interesiting. H3 is allready quite strong. Also you need to think about the fact that the sodium salts are hygroscopic. And don't say it's not very much.

 

Also why do you say the sodium compounds would be safer? Thats stupid nonsense as soon as it absorbs moisture from the air, it will react with metalls or other reducing agents. And just a little moisture can be enought, to get the reaction to a temperature where it can self ignite. Specially with finely divided metalls like they get used for flash.

[Jonathan]

schroedinger,

 

What is "stufu"? Do you mean STFU?

 

In any event, I always speak here from experimental experience. How about you? Experience, or dogma you've learned? Sounds like dogma to me. Dogma, you should know, is anathema to independent thinking.

 

The poster welcomed any comments. You're free, of course, to take shots at my comment. But to do so, you should adhere to good reasoning. You write, "And don't say it's not very much." I didn't; but I will if I believe it to be true. You also write, "Also why do you say the sodium compounds would be safer." You'll please note I wrote no such thing.

 

I suggest that if you want to be an engineer or a scientist, you become more meticulous in your thinking and writing.

[Mumbles]

Given how lazy schoedinger can be in his spelling, I assume he really meant "stuff".

 

You did state that "Sodium chlorate will do pretty much everything KClO₃ does and is less sensitive." While you did not explicitly say that it's safer, I would draw the same conclusion that Schroedinger did. By virtue that you claim it to be less sensitive, it is implied by proxy that you feel it is safer.

 

Anyway, back to the real topic at hand. Any chlorate or perchlorate of sodium has no real place in practical pyrotechnics due to the sodium emission and hygroscopicity. As far as the potassium analogues, it will depend on what you're willing to do. To me, it's not a matter of one being much safer than another. In reality, they're much closer in sensitivities than most people realize. Chlorates are better for cooler burning stars. They're basically required for colored smokes, and have definite advantages when making organic stars. Potassium perchlorate on the other hand, has more uses for metallic fueled stars and already relatively sensitive compositions like whistle and flash powders. Besides being more sensitive, you lose basically all the advantages of chlorate when using them in metallic fueled stars. I also have no issues with priming chlorate stars with BP, assuming you have good sulfur. From there, once coated, there are no issues with using BP as a burst since the chlorate is sealed off in a way.

 

I trust you'd be equally safe with either oxidizer. If you can live with the relatively dimmer, but well saturated colors of organic stars, I'd go with that. If you'd like to make lots of whistle, flash, or prefer the much brighter, less saturated colors, of metallic stars, go with perchlorate. Flash is such a small part of pyro compared to color stars, you can always source a smaller amount to take care of that application if you decide to go with chlorate stars.

[Jonathan]

Given how lazy schoedinger can be in his spelling, I assume he really meant "stuff".

 

You did state that "Sodium chlorate will do pretty much everything KClO₃ does and is less sensitive." While you did not explicitly say that it's safer, I would draw the same conclusion that Schroedinger did. By virtue that you claim it to be less sensitive, it is implied by proxy that you feel it is safer.

 

Anyway, back to the real topic at hand. Any chlorate or perchlorate of sodium has no real place in practical pyrotechnics due to the sodium emission and hygroscopicity. As far as the potassium analogues, it will depend on what you're willing to do. To me, it's not a matter of one being much safer than another. In reality, they're much closer in sensitivities than most people realize. Chlorates are better for cooler burning stars. They're basically required for colored smokes, and have definite advantages when making organic stars. Potassium perchlorate on the other hand, has more uses for metallic fueled stars and already relatively sensitive compositions like whistle and flash powders. Besides being more sensitive, you lose basically all the advantages of chlorate when using them in metallic fueled stars. I also have no issues with priming chlorate stars with BP, assuming you have good sulfur. From there, once coated, there are no issues with using BP as a burst since the chlorate is sealed off in a way.

 

I trust you'd be equally safe with either oxidizer. If you can live with the relatively dimmer, but well saturated colors of organic stars, I'd go with that. If you'd like to make lots of whistle, flash, or prefer the much brighter, less saturated colors, of metallic stars, go with perchlorate. Flash is such a small part of pyro compared to color stars, you can always source a smaller amount to take care of that application if you decide to go with chlorate stars.

Mumbles,

 

Schroedinger asserted I made a safety comment as to all sodium salts. I didn't. My comment was specific to NaClO₃ relative to KClO₃.

 

My objective here is to open discussion and thinking. If you think that is not good, I agree with you, because this is your blog.

 

The worst thing that can happen on a creative blog like this is for creative ideas to be shot down irresponsibly.

 

I've worked since 1960 with lots of experimental ideas. Convention is your enemy, Mumbles.

 

Experimentation and learning (and risk) are important to perceptive and creative youths.

[ivars21]

Thank you guys for your comments. Most likely I am going for KClO3, as I am planning to use organic star compositions anyway. And then again, if there is something specific that I can't do with KClO3 I will just use KClO4. Apparently, Maltese use chlorate and their results are amazing.

 

Stay safe and thank you for your help.

[taiwanluthiers]

Thanks for this thread. I got a lot more KCLO3 than I know to do with because that MMO anode and potassium chloride really makes a limitless supply of KCLO3. I guess that is one advantage of chlorate is that it's relatively easy to make at home if chemicals are expensive. I wish the same could be said of perchlorate.

[schroedinger]

Well can be said, as soon as you got PbO2 anode

[taiwanluthiers]

You got some for sale? As far as I know it's not sold by anyone, and according to people like WSM the stuff is more fragile (mechanically) than eggs, and it requires a fairly extensive lab setup (at least based on how Swede does it) to make them, as well as dealing with very toxic chemicals. It's not like MMO for sure.

[pyrojig]

I would go for the platinum electrodes. Bite the bullet for now , and pay the $ till a more durable sub is found for the production of perch. THere is much research and testing going on behind the scenes to develop such a thing, but I fear we are still a ways out.

As for the choice of kclo3 and kclo4 I love both. They both have a special place in my hobby, and heart. I love electrochemistry as well as a couple the fellow on this site, and find that if respected kclo3 will work for most everything perch will. There are exceptions, but the sensitivities of past impurities is not much a issue anymore. The use of kclo3 for flash is still used to this day with relative safety ( i say this sparingly) , but i personally find perch safer for flash( i have worked with both). In tests done with a kco3 - antimony trisulfide- and AL (used as a target mix) was wet badly by a rain storm , it sat in a dry area for a month or two and upon shooting it , it showed no signs at all of power loss, , degrading, or more sensitivities present.

 

Making stars is a by far the most enticing thing about the use of kclo3. It offers advantages that kclo4 cant.Ease of ignition , large flame and good chlorine donner . The sensitivities are great for friction comps, smokes , shooting targets , and a array of other wonderful devices. Yes there are inherit dangers , but usually these are in the larger stars or large comets for that matter . Detonations are more common when there is a fine metal in the comp.and or larger comets are used and confined . Organic stars are less prone to this and offer nice colors . .

[taiwanluthiers]

The concern with platinum is I'm not sure the right stuff to use, and I heard somewhere that it still erodes even if used properly, so something like one anode makes 10kg of perch. Given the cost of the anode and inability (for us) to recover lost platinum, it doesn't seem all that economical.

[schroedinger]

The platinium really depends on the chloride concentration off the liquer. But this all got allready mentioned in the perc thread. But one anode will do kore then 10kg