maho Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Hey guys I'm new here. I've been scrolling through the forums for a while and just finally joined. This could go in the safety section as well, but it is very general so I'm posting it here. I'm really just curious about how you guys order chemicals. I know there are tons of websites that supply pyrotechnic chemicals. My real worry is the fact that you are shipping potentially explosive materials through the mail. I was going to order the basic chemicals to make black powder or flash powder. I was a bit paranoid and read a few posts online of people ordering 2/3 components and the box arrived at their house and shortly after an atf agent/police officer came with a search warrant. What's the best way to get chemicals (in small amounts, I'm just getting my foot in the door here) without causing problems with the local and federal government? I'm not interested in buying a lot of anything. I just want to be able to try out a few compositions and see how well I do with it. Any advise for a new guy? btw I don't have a pyro license. Is that something a lot of people on this forum have?
Shizznt Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Whenever I buy chemicals ( used to get them from skylighter, but their prices are getting high, now I get them from pyrochemsource) I never have any problems. Agents haven't come to my house with a search warrant, but I think it depends what you order. If you buy pounds chemicals for flash powder, such as perchlorate and dark aluminum, right off the bat then I'm pretty sure it would look suspicious. When I first bought chemicals, I mostly bought chemicals for stars and black powder in, sorta large amounts. If you want some advice on what you should buy, I would suggest black powder chems. because you would be able to make both black powder and stars from it. I wouldn't suggest starting out making flash powder since it is really dangerous. and no, I don't have a pyro license.
Jonathan Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I've found I can get almost anything shipped to me one way or another. I agree about Pyro Chem; along with Firefox and Skylighter, just about any pyro chemical you want to explore is available online. For unusual chems, you need to go hunting. Some unusual chems I've bought online from U.S. suppliers. Others I've bought online from Chinese, Eastern European, and Middle Eastern suppliers (more often than not via ebay). I don't have an ATFE license.
maho Posted January 13, 2014 Author Posted January 13, 2014 I have looked at both of them. It's my understanding that if you buy from a pyro company it would be more acceptable. So if I bought sulfur and potassium nitrate (I can make charcoal) it would not arouse suspicion? The smallest affordable quantities were still 1lb, 2lb etc. I would only make 10-20 grams (maybe less) at a time to get the hang of it, but it seemed impractical to buy these chemicals in grams. Flash powder was just an example. I don't think I'm ready to step into that realm yet. Anyway for example, if I purchased this: http://www.skylighter.com/Black-Powder-Kits.asp would that be ok? or does it come down to local laws? (in terms of shipping) I know that kit makes a lot, a lot more than I need, but it's complete and there's no hiding what you're making. A local gun shop sells all kinds of black powder, smokeless powder, pyrodex etc. but charges a premium. On the plus side, it's much safer and I do not have to worry about shipping these materials.
Maserface Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I have looked at both of them. It's my understanding that if you buy from a pyro company it would be more acceptable. So if I bought sulfur and potassium nitrate (I can make charcoal) it would not arouse suspicion? The smallest affordable quantities were still 1lb, 2lb etc. I would only make 10-20 grams (maybe less) at a time to get the hang of it, but it seemed impractical to buy these chemicals in grams. Flash powder was just an example. I don't think I'm ready to step into that realm yet. Anyway for example, if I purchased this: http://www.skylighter.com/Black-Powder-Kits.asp would that be ok? or does it come down to local laws? (in terms of shipping) I know that kit makes a lot, a lot more than I need, but it's complete and there's no hiding what you're making. A local gun shop sells all kinds of black powder, smokeless powder, pyrodex etc. but charges a premium. On the plus side, it's much safer and I do not have to worry about shipping these materials. AFAIK, Its fine to own and store chemicals, id suggest getting into the habit of keeping your fuels and oxidizers separate (when you get some) as I believe it is NFPA code to do so. As far as gun shop powder, it has a special exception for use in sporting (cannons and muzzle-loaders). BP for pyro needs to be stored according to ATF code.
Nessalco Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Your local laws are the final determinant - ATF says as long as you properly store the stuff you make, it is legal to make fireworks for your own use. Local laws are usually stricter - start with your local Fire Marshal. So far as shipping - It is completely legal to possess KNO3, sulfur, and charcoal. I buy KNO3 in 50# bags, and nobody blinks. It's what you do with it, and where you do it, that matters. If you plan to use purchased powder for fireworks, you technically need a permit. The only un-permitted use of BP is in "antique firearms." Kevin O
maho Posted January 13, 2014 Author Posted January 13, 2014 Thanks guys. I think that pretty much answers it. I just wanted to make sure I'm doing the right thing before I order. I'll read up on the local laws. I know it's illegal to use any type of airborne fireworks without a permit around here (Pennsylvania -we have a lot of trees, it's in the name). A good friend of mine has a couple hundred acres where we can experiment with the mixes and the echoes/report won't escape his property line. In fact his neighbor (literally 2 miles away) acquires a permit to put on a fireworks show every forth of July for anyone to come watch. I think I may be paying him a visit to pick his brain.
LambentPyro Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 IMO, the best pyro websites I buy from, for quality and price, is HCS and PCS. However, PCS is increasing their prices a bit. They know how to ship, don't worry about that. They ship oxidizers and fuels in separate boxes, yet taped together. They are licensed by UPS to ship, so don't worry about shipping legalities unless you are buying from a questionable source for Pyro chems. Shipping is the real killer when it comes to pyro, make large orders and buy things consistently so when you run out of Perchlorate, you ran out of Red Gum too or say Strontium Carbonate. Unless, you will be buying small orders that have prices of shipping higher than the product itself.
maho Posted January 13, 2014 Author Posted January 13, 2014 That's a good point. I have noticed that PCS has cheap "ish" chemicals with very expensive shipping. eg: AP is $10/lb with $15.50 shipping charge from their amazon store. At least on amazon, their shipping is $15.50 for almost everything. Oh to add to this, would purchasing these chemicals from amazon be ok? PCS, Alpha Chemicals etc all have amazon stores. I have purchased dark aluminum (3micron) and iron (III) oxide from alpha chemicals' store to make thermite. It came directly from AC, it seemed very legitimate.
HissingRDX Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Can someone link me to a story of an ATF/FBI/sheriff/police officer coming to the door of an individual who ordered potential explosive/explosive precursor chemicals online? I find it odd that they would monitor a 1 lb potassium perchlorate/Al powder/KNO3 purchase, but anyone could relatively easily make 5 lbs of liquid high explosive from nothing more than hardware store items. Buying 50 or more pounds of anything should however be suspicious. Edited January 14, 2014 by HissingRDX
Mumbles Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 It happened to me 9 years ago. I bought resourcinol off ebay from someone who was apparently a "person of interest". It probably won't happen as long as you deal with reputable suppliers. Even if you order a suspicious amount or assortment of chemicals, most suppliers will just refuse to sell to you and that will be it. Assuming it's not a pattern or done repeatedly I doubt anything would ever come of it. Generally as long as you're not ordering a bunch of dark Al and perchlorate, everything will be alright.
LambentPyro Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Yea, that's what a lot of suppliers put restrictions on, if you order materials such as heavy walled cardboard tubing, or like Chris said, lots of Perchlorate and Dark Al, you will be the first person you're door is knocked on if an incident in the region occurs where homemade explosives were used. A lot of Pyro's acquire bulk quantities, such as 50 LB. bags of KNO3 greenhouse grade fertilizer and resell it, they don't get visits from the ATF as far as we've heard. Just use your head, if an incident in the country occurs involving explosives (unfortunately), don't make a large chemical order the next day. Pay attention to current events and law, you'll be surprised on how much it applies to our hobby. Edited January 14, 2014 by LambentPyro
MWJ Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 All fireworks are ok to use here, in the winter time only (North Eastern Washington). I just asked my fire chief to make sure.
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