Graphite Coating Granulated Black Powder

[LambentPyro]

Is there a source where I can find how it's done? Looks like something neat to try. If any of you guys do it, mind sharing how it's done?

 

Thanks.

[Maserface]

after your bp is corned and dry, tumble with no media, remove fines, and tumble with graphite, no media, remove fines.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Maserface

[LambentPyro]

What do you mean by fines? Like no fine powder?

 

How much do I put in?

 

Does it have to be Corned? Can it be Pulverone?

Edited December 15, 2013 by LambentPyro

[Maserface]

http://www.fireworking.com/content/graphite-tumbled-bp

[schroedinger]

What for you wan`t tographite coat you bp?

[LambentPyro]

That topic was an interesting read, thanks for the link. Lloyd's method sounds great.

 

I will just break open pencils and put the graphite into a mortar & pestle and grind it to a powder, it will require some manual labor, but I've done it before.

[Mumbles]

For a much more cost effective source, you can get graphite powder as a lubricant at the hardware store. It's typically sold for lubricating locks. It doesn't really matter for this application, but it wont be contaminated with clay like pencil lead, and will be much finer than you can achieve with a mortar and pestle.

[Arthur]

Graphite is also available from artists supply stores, it's used in GRP mouldings.

[ollie1016]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I thought people began to coat BP in graphite to make reloading cartridges easier?

 

Does Goex and other commercial brands coat their BP in graphite powder?

[FlaMtnBkr]

Super fine graphite is used on pine wood derby cars. It is also used to lubricate seeds in some farming equipment and is cheap for large quantities.

 

It doesn't really provide a benefit in pyro though.

[Mumbles]

Yes, coating your grains in graphite actually reduce performance Graphite on it's own will slow the powder a little bit. The processing that goes into it, further slows the burn rate. Only sporting powders are tumbled and coated. This smooths the surface, removes the sharp edges, and makes the grains more uniformly sized. All of this, combined with the slight lubricating properties, make it able to be reliably measured by volume and utilize some of the reloading machines/jigs.

[LambentPyro]

Makes BP much less messy to work with. I have graphite coated BP that I broke open from a chinese consumer shell.

 

Using Dextrin will reduce performance more than just using 0.5% Graphite, which is still a source for Carbon fuel, while Dextrin is not a strong fuel at all and slows burn rate detrimentally. Have you ever seen a formula where Dextrin is the primary fuel in a Pyro formula? I have seen Graphite in Pyro formulas, but never Dextrin. I am pretty convinced it will minimally affect BP performance.

[Mumbles]

That sure is a lot of unfounded speculation on your part. In any case, most of what you say isn't really true.

 

1. If your current BP is messier than graphite coated grains, you need to screen out your fines or make harder grains.

 

1a. If you're worried about cleanliness when making pyro, you need to find a new hobby.

 

2. You way over estimate how much dextrin slows BP.

 

3. The graphite combined with the required processing will slow the BP far more.

 

I have seen formulas where Dextrin is in place as a primary fuel. Check out some of Petri Pihko's formulas, particularly the blues. They largely use dextrin in amounts much higher than a simple binder.

 

On the other hand, except for a bridgeless electrical match that's sort of mediocre, I've never seen a pyrotechnic formula that isn't complete garbage calling for graphite as a major fuel.

[LambentPyro]

We tend to argue a lot.

 

1. I mean messy as in dustier, the granulated powder rubs off on my fingers very easily.

 

1a. There is a difference between making a mess and making a dangerous mess. Where there is a lot of dust or open chemicals that are wet, contamination and side reactions are much more likely to occur. Mess can be very minimized if patient and if the work area is clean to begin with, as that is the way I have learned to keep things clean. There are chefs out there who are very messy, and who are very neat, same goes here in Pyro.

 

2. I have a few sources of people who do not use Dextrin because it does slow it down pretty significantly. That is how I began to not use it. Otherwise, I would have continued. Some have no problem using 5% in their lift, some (like me) just think that much is ridiculous, and some (soon to be me), do not use it at all and use Red Gum with Denatured instead. I am declaring what I have experienced, however your experience is much higher in Pyro than mine, agree with me here that we all learn different things based off one subject.

 

3. Tumbling BP with no media and 0.5% Graphite slows it down that much? I will have to experiment and see if that hypothesis is correct.

 

 

 

I have a few of his formulas, one I want to try out that is probably the most popular, is Pihko Blue (believe there is three variations), formula as follows, showing that Red Gum is clearly the primary fuel and does not include Dextrin:

KClO4 63

CuO 13

Parlon 14

Red Gum 10

 

I think it is safe to say that COMPARED to Red Gum, Dextrin is a very weak fuel, even to most fuels probably. Its derivative, Corn Starch, is a much stronger fuel than Dextrin itself.

 

As I do not recall where I found the Graphite based formula, here is something quick from Skylighter, "[Graphite is] used to opacify rocket fuel grains. The opacifier accelerates the rate of surface burning and prevents infrared energy from penetrating the propellant grain and causing it to explode." Although it does not prove it is the primary fuel, it seems pretty significant for rockets.

 

It's going to bother me now where the hell I remember the formula from.....grrr

Edited December 16, 2013 by LambentPyro

[FlaMtnBkr]

I don't think you know the purpose of a grain opacifier. It is actually to slow down the burn rate.

 

Can graphite even act as a fuel (burn)? It is carbon which can't further break down except for perhaps a change in crystal structure.

Edited December 16, 2013 by FlaMtnBkr

[LambentPyro]

Yea, in large quantities it will slow the burn rate, but not in the amount we're talking about.

 

Yes, it is a source for carbon based fuel. I'd expect it to.

 

Carbon does not break down to form a crystal structure. It reorganizes from an immense amount of time and heat. Breaking down would imply that it changes its current form into a more simpler form, while thats not the case. Probably the opposite. The crystal structure is very uniform and organized, while something like Charcoal is a mess of shit, which is simple.

 

Even Graphite is pretty organized in its structure, along with the Buckyballs and Nanotubes, however they're nothing like Diamond.

Edited December 16, 2013 by LambentPyro

[pyrokid]

Lambent you should make some diamond tumbled BP, I bet it would be much better than just graphite.

[LambentPyro]

Lambent you should make some diamond tumbled BP, I bet it would be much better than just graphite.

Funny you said that!

 

I asked Chris about Diamond based BP (with Diamond dust) a while ago. Only a few tests were completed but I do not recall what he said the results were of the experiment.

[Mumbles]

It's not great.

 

 

The less well structured the carbon source is, the faster it seems to burn. Obviously particle size also plays an enormous role. Also for what it's worth, graphite and diamond are quite closely related. You can think of diamond as a cross-linked form of graphite.

 

Carbon definitely can burn, even diamond given the right conditions. The insulating properties of graphite just make it harder to make burn, than say charcoal.

[LambentPyro]

It's not great.

 

The less well structured the carbon source is, the faster it seems to burn. Obviously particle size also plays an enormous role. Also for what it's worth, graphite and diamond are quite closely related. You can think of diamond as a cross-linked form of graphite.

 

Carbon definitely can burn, even diamond given the right conditions. The insulating properties of graphite just make it harder to make burn, than say charcoal.

 

This is how I believe it combusted. When Diamond is subjected to intense heat very quickly, its structure completely falls down and the crystal structure is destroyed, and the Potassium Nitrate can easily oxidize the Carbon. That's why it took a little while for it to light, because the heat had to break the structure up.

 

There is a video on YouTube where this person took a very large karat diamond and put it into a very hot chamber for a while, and when they took it out, it was practically Graphite or even Charcoal for the very least.

 

Very true, Graphite and Diamond are the two closest together. Actually if you buried Graphite in the Asthenosphere, it would crystalize much faster than say Amorphous Carbon or a Buckyball.

 

Here is one of my favorite pictures, I love Carbon Allotropes, I think they're absolutely fascinating!

http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/gallery/image/2456-carbon-allotropes/

 

Can you guess which one is Graphite? Amorphous (pretty much Charcoal)? How about Diamond? Letter h is a Nanotube, unrelated to Pyro, the possibilities for applications are endless. If you're interested in it, look it up or send me a message. I love conversing!

Edited December 16, 2013 by LambentPyro

[psyco_1322]

I'd like to mention there is a big difference in grain hardness between 5% dextrin bound bp, and 3% red gum bound bp. Half the reason the red gum is faster is there is less of it. If you used 2% dextrin, and got equally shitty grains the crumble with easy, then I'm sure you would see some kind of speed increase.

 

Then there is cost factors in there too. The cost of red gum vs dextrin, and the cost of alcohol vs water. It's obvious which will be cheaper.

Edited December 17, 2013 by psyco_1322

[Mumbles]

2% dextrin is actually quite sufficient to hold BP together. Honestly, you could probably use 0% dextrin and end up with harder grains just by binding with water than with red gum. Red gum, weight for weight, slows BP significantly more than dextrin. It's a common half-assed way to make slurry delays actually. 3% red gum is just that sweet spot of kind of holds together without taking a huge hit in speed.

[FlaMtnBkr]

I don't use any binder and wet with 100% water. My BP is surprisingly durable and I use it for most everything. I really don't see the need for harder BP. Try it and see how you like it. I bet most people wouldn't use binder if they knew how hard it was without any.

[Maserface]

I have used something like 1-2% dextrin in my bp but all I use it for is rocket fuel, I was a total nooby at that time and since all I use is alcohol granulated bp.

 

I would be more interested in phenolic / hexamine systems for granulated bp, or even just the resin

[LambentPyro]

I have used something like 1-2% dextrin in my bp but all I use it for is rocket fuel, I was a total nooby at that time and since all I use is alcohol granulated bp.

I would be more interested in phenolic / hexamine systems for granulated bp, or even just the resin

You mean Denatured/Red Gum is what you use now?