help with construction methods multipurpose stick busters

[leedrill]

hi guys hoping some one can extend on ideas from those supplied by ned gorski

mainly due to the fact ive never ran separating charges on my motors nor have i thought about it till now

but to me i like running hot delays in my motors so i can get as much tail in the air as i can and still maintain as much coast speed as possible

 

what i want to do is run dual purpose stick busters / bottom shots for fallout safety and bottom shot effect

i dont run time fuse in my shells on motors due to having a delay portion in a motor for that reason

so i tend to fill my motors right to the top to get as much out of my precious nept as i can

leaving me no space for a separation charge and time fuse is not an abundant commodity in my area

 

after wasping my shells i just poke through the passfire and cram in as much black match as will fit in the passfire tube

 

my thoughts now are add a piece of tube with an id to fit the od of my motors to give me space for a separation charge do the same with my passfire as before but put 2 seconds of visco into the passfire as a delay on the shell making sure to prime it and have it in contact with the top of the fuel grain then have a hole through the side the same as ned with visco at about 6 to 7 seconds out the side being hot glued to the small layer of clay pressed on top of the fuel grain then just quick match from the end of the visco directly into the stick buster/bottom shot i would have the stick buster as low on the motor as possible

 

my question can anyone see a reason to no go this route or do you have a better option that dosnt involve me having to change my methods of motor construction

[dan999ification]

You won't get the delay between shell and shot but you could just fast fuse or qm the shot, ned also does this. It can make the break seem harder than it is.

Make the shot with time fuse with the delay you want and qm or fast fuse to it.

These options need no modification to the motor, I'd be worried with high power motors that it could push through or break the adapter ( which I do use on my nzless )

 

I try not to over complicate things that are to be destroyed, but I'd probably put more detail into bigger motors and shells .

 

Dan.

[leedrill]

i feel i can make the adapter sufficient to withstand the force without increasing weight too much im just trying to come up with a way to not have to use time fuse im happy to use just visco for the bottom shot but trying to come up with a way to get the timing for the shell with visco seeing as it is with a motor it should be easy but the separation charge makes me think i might just have to go time fuse for the shell and visco for the bottom shot id much rather have the bottom shot/stick buster as an added safety/ effect rather than blend it into the burst of the shell no one who would see my motors would really know but i would be disappointed in my self

im going to have to do a dummy run i think the problem being if i do it with a 6" dummy weight and a separation charge and stick buster im not going to be able to gauge whats going on at that height till i try a real test with some break in the shell and so on but hoping someone has experience with a method that is not outlined by others experience except for their own testing reliability

[boule]

Hey Lee,

if you want to just make a safety charge to bust the stick off the driver it can be accomplished quite handily. I presume that you are taping your sticks to the motor, probably in addition to some hot glue, right?

Well, if you are doing that, you may want to hot-glue the stick and then, before you wrap it with tape for additional safety, include a small lance tube with bursting charge right on the side of the stick. That way it will sit right against the glue joint and under the tape attaching the stick so when it goes, your stick will sail away safely and not come down like a spear. Fusing can be as expedient as just cramming a fast visco into the passfire hole and leading it down on the side of the rocket. Depending on the size of your motor, it should give you a 2-3 second delay but if you are desperate to get the timing just right, brickford fuse and piped match are an option, too.

 

Just as an FYI, fast BP with solid end plugs is usually plenty enough for separation but I'd go with whistle mix or flash for the added effect of a bottom shot.

[Maserface]

hi guys hoping some one can extend on ideas from those supplied by ned gorski

mainly due to the fact ive never ran separating charges on my motors nor have i thought about it till now

but to me i like running hot delays in my motors so i can get as much tail in the air as i can and still maintain as much coast speed as possible

 

what i want to do is run dual purpose stick busters / bottom shots for fallout safety and bottom shot effect

i dont run time fuse in my shells on motors due to having a delay portion in a motor for that reason

so i tend to fill my motors right to the top to get as much out of my precious nept as i can

leaving me no space for a separation charge and time fuse is not an abundant commodity in my area

 

after wasping my shells i just poke through the passfire and cram in as much black match as will fit in the passfire tube

 

my thoughts now are add a piece of tube with an id to fit the od of my motors to give me space for a separation charge do the same with my passfire as before but put 2 seconds of visco into the passfire as a delay on the shell making sure to prime it and have it in contact with the top of the fuel grain then have a hole through the side the same as ned with visco at about 6 to 7 seconds out the side being hot glued to the small layer of clay pressed on top of the fuel grain then just quick match from the end of the visco directly into the stick buster/bottom shot i would have the stick buster as low on the motor as possible

 

my question can anyone see a reason to no go this route or do you have a better option that dosnt involve me having to change my methods of motor construction

 

Since you press so much delay grain, I think you are right on going with a tube extender and an ejection charge, id blackmatch through your bulkhead into your ejection, and blackmatch into your shell, and then visco into your buster.

 

http://i.imgur.com/cwrqwT9.png

 

inb4 such art

[Juiceh]

Can you get away without using the clay bulkhead on your motors? If so then I would skip the adapter tube and just make a hole into the side of the motor tube right above the delay, run super fast paper fuse or quickmatch through the hole down to the time fused stick buster. Fill the space in the end of the motor where your clay bulkhead was with loose bp to ignite the quickmatch to the stickbuster and to the shell at once. This is what I do. I also use kraft tape to cover the quickmatch to protect it.

[psyco_1322]

Maser basically made a pic of what I would suggest. I would not call it a "separation" charge, as if you fuse the header to insta-fire, there is not going to be much separation before the shell goes off. I have always done my headers that way, fused with super fast paper fuse. I leave a bit (~3/4") of space in the end of the motor, and throw a pinch of bp in there to help add fire after the delay grain burns out. I don't see any reason why you couldn't just port your fusing to the stick buster out the side of the tube after the delay grain.

 

You're "coupler" idea, where there is a tube attached to the header that slides over the motor is a pretty common thing. I have used the method with some very heavy headers, like 3L Lampares.

[leedrill]

Thanks guys the input helps now I'm still thinking it sounds like a couple of you have the shell bursting right next to a stick buster I'm just paranoid about damaging the fuse and just adding a dangerous unfired salute to my unbroken lawn dart that is my biggest fear but thinking about it I'd like a longer delay on the buster so it really has the bottom shot effect even on a hanging glitter so 6 seconds after aperture sounds better to me

 

So I think if I fit the buster as suggested in next to the stick and have the visco timed at 6 secs or so and pasted onto the motor being nept and core burner it won't get set off like that and if I protect the visco that's has been lit I'm now thinking about it like a timed report inside a shell does it get damaged no so I should be fine my shell are not boosted so as long as my buster construction methods are sound then I should be fine

 

And comments on this thought

[nater]

I would never trust visco to light a salute. You would be better off with proper time fuse or a spolette.

[leedrill]

i have to agree a bit there nater hence my reason behind the post im apprehensive to use it but i have to admit the 3mm visco i have is very good quality better than what ive seen people use for timing on small shells 2 and 3" shells and if i prime the visco and can hot glue it in contact with the delay grain have the shell just blackmatched into the extended tube with a separation charge and the visco to the buster pasted onto the motor to protect it i can see it being quite reliable

my problem is the time fuse nater is quite hard to get a steady supply and we pay through the teeth for it over here

so maybe a dummy run is in order with the stick buster just with bp and ti and the shell with the same so i can get an idea of time and performance of the setup

if it dosnt work then ill have to use spoolets

will be way to costly for me to do about 38 6 second delays thats a lot of time fuse

[boule]

Well, why don't you actually press the delay into the salute casing like they do with the matchbook crackers and just fuse it with quickmatch? That way you won't have to worry about visco being torn off and still have a reliable ignition.

[mabuse00]

My idea would be to just mount a piece of visco fuse from the nozzle area up to the bottom shot/stick breaker. Since the main fuse is usually isolated, the bottomshot will ignite when the grain fires.

 

I've never tried that, but how consistent is ordinary visco fuse's burn rate? I bet (at least mine) the consistency of the delay charge wont be much better.

[leedrill]

i think ill go with something like this pic just with the visco run underneath the adaptor for obvious reasons the adaptor will have some normal break in it same as my shells receive the adaptor will not be glued on in anyway just a snug fit and enough overlap onto the motor it wont come off then gum tape will be applied over the stick buster and the visco completely protecting it i will put some mean in the passfire hole in the clay bulk head and put the visco into it touching the fuel grain and hot glue over the top of it there will be a bit of a delay but the visco will ignite the seperation charge and will go on to light the salute i will do a static test to prove my concept will work and post the vid in the next week or so

 

http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/gallery/image/2445-untitledfvhbvkjhvbnksjvns/

[Col]

The link isnt working but it sounds like it should work ok . I`ve used visco pressed into the delay grain to attach, ignite and drop small salutes from the outside of the motor, its pretty reliable. For stickbuster duty, a longer piece of visco and a salute lashed right next to the stick would do the trick.

 

Edited December 2, 2013 by Col

[leedrill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnMUQFEWcbk&feature=youtu.be

 

 

read the details in you tube and leave a comment here would appreciate any thoughts

[Maserface]

now all you need is to go full scale

[leedrill]

ti be honest full scale will be easier and the proof of concept setup was with crappy 2mm visco i honestly think that if i have all the stick buster just fused like a you would in a chain i.e. just quick match to the salute and black match inside for reassurance then i can just visco to the pipe and it will be fine my only worry now is the extra power from a 4" shell as opossed to a 2" shell full of meal but as i said the nept tube was folded in on one side i made it so the 2" shell attached to the adapter in the test was powerful enough to see if it blew the fuse out and made it so the fuse is the thing actually lighting the separation charge so 6mm hole a few mm into the fuel fill with meal and hot glue over it for the ones i will shoot on full scale i will nc bp prime the end of the visco for more reassurance but im confident the visco will be reliable if i employ evey method possible to make sure the visco lights and use high quality 3mm stuff

im even thinking as i said running 2 lengths into the passfire just incase one of them has a dodgy powder train but i would truse the visco i have just as much if not more than the time fuse

[FlaMtnBkr]

I think if you leave about 3/16" of the tube empty and fill with a teaspoon of black powder you will get good separation of shell and rocket. You don't need much BP to pop the shell off and get separation, especially if rocket is still in motion. Then you need something to give the shell a bit of a delay so the shell doesn't damage the salute and fuse. If you used a spollete and then put your short piece of tube around it which would then slide over the rocket. The separation charge will light the spollete (and visco) and give the shell a bit of distance before going off.

 

If you really want to fill the rocket to the end of the tube then attach the tube that slides over the rocket first so you have space to dump in your granulated BP and then put the shell on and insert the spollete into tube so it is in direct contact with BP. If the BP in the spollete doesn't go all the way to the end of the spollete tube, then stuff some black match into the empty space to insure ignition. Need to read up on spolletes as well so you prep them to take and give fire. If you drill into the rocket delay or through a clay bulk head, I would also stuff black match in the hole instead of relying on flame shooting through or relying on granulated BP getting in there.

 

I would drill a hole into the tube and loose BP and insert the visco to the stick buster. Will probably have to notch the tube that slides over the rocket so the visco has space to run down the side of the rocket. I would then put tape over the visco so it is somewhat protected and can burn without any wind from the rocket being in motion. The visco should burn slow and not 'quickmatch' under the tape because the BP isn't exposed and is well contained inside the visco. I would cut the visco at an angle and prime with an NC/BP slurry to insure ignition. A pinch of aluminum (4 or 5%) helps make the slurry hot and makes a fierce fire ball to help light whatever you are using it on. If you don't have NC, ping pong ball lacquer should work or probably any binder that isn't water based which could wet the fuse unless you give it plenty of dying time. And dont use a high concentration lacquer because too much binder can inhibit flame propagation some. And 1% CMC helps BP stay suspended in solution instead of settling to the bottom when making black match and may work good here though it might not be a problem when using a thicker lacquer to wet the slurry. I haven't slurry primed enough to tell if this is an issue. The slurry may have to be applied after the stick buster is attached and the fuse is inserted into the hole in the rocket tube since the slurry will increase the diameter of the fuse a bit.

 

This is how I would go about it if I didn't have any time fuse available. Sorry if I got caught up in the details some as you may know most of that already. Good luck!