nervous about ramming metals

[giod]

So i just started a couple gerb projects. Pretty straight forward, ram the clay nozzle, and then ram comp. But when i was pounding i had visions of an explosion from metals in the comp sparking.My first gerb (too small nozzle for hot mix) had just exploded violently an hour prior, so it was fresh in my mind.. Anyway i hear all this concern about not screening metals, but then it's ok to ram with full force using a metal ramming tool. I'm using hardened steel rod, but think maybe aluminum is safer (no Sparks) also the metals i am using are: TiFe, 250 mesh mgAl, and sponge Ti.

Conflicted and nervous..

[Arthur]

Ramming -hitting a tool with a "hammer" is BAD for comps with metal content

Pressing -applying a steady pressure with a lever or screw or hydraulic jack is LOT safer.

 

However this is NOT a "SAFE" hobby. If you want to be safe then take up knitting or crochet! If you do pyro then learn and appreciate the risks, learn how to minimise the risks and hazards then wear appropriate protective clothing.

[Nessalco]

The only metal-containing comps I've ever been vaguely comfortable ramming use spherical ti. If it's got sponge or flake I'll press it.

 

Kevin

[fredhappy]

My best advice is to invest in a press asap.

 

I've never felt comfortable with ramming anything and bought a press right in the beginning.

 

Investing in a press is investing in your own personal safety.

 

Best

 

Fred

Edited September 17, 2013 by fredhappy

[Col]

Having an small arbor press and a beefy hydraulic covers most eventualities, making smaller items can be quicker/less tedious with an arbor press. Not having your hand wrapped around a potential explosion, and having a blast shield between you and "it", is priceless.

[Shadowcat1969]

And, YES, get an aluminum rod to work with in contact with comps.

 

I can't find it right now, but I read an article a couple years ago about ramming/pressing comps with metals. It described very well how to determine, using the gap between rammer/tube and particle size of your metal, whether you want to ram it or not.

If the particles are small enough to fit easily between the rammer and tube you're ok.

If they are too big to fit you're ok.

But when they are within a certain range of the size of gap they can wedge between the rammer and tube and cause damage to the rammer and cause more friction, etc.

 

I'll look around and see if I can find it again and post a link, unless someone else has that handy.

[fredhappy]

shadowcat: the aluminium rammer won't help in preventing metal particles sparking from friction caused by the ramming. Unwanted ignition does not always have to happen due to the rammer striking metal particles directly.

 

Furthermore, your advice in regard to using the gapsize between rammer/tube as some kind of indication for an "ok" particle size sounds pretty difficult and imo is likely prone to misinterpretation.

 

In general a black powder rocket CAN be rammed if it does not contain any metals....but...you'd have to ask yourself if you want to ram it since, as Col pointed out correctly, you have your hand wrapped around a potential explosion.

 

Please, my colleagues, always invest in a decent press when you start with rockets/gerbs, it makes production easier and also much more safe. This great passion of ours doesn't come cheap, always invest in personal safety.

 

Most accidents always somehow seem to involve blackpowder I think this is often overlooked.

 

please be safe,

 

best

 

fred

[giod]

Yeah, it has me nervous, and that takes the fun out of it.. I'm surprised a reputable site like Skylighter, suggests ramming metals.. The mgal, didn't bother me too much, but the FeTi made some serious scratching sounds.. I didn't like that, plus having the previous gerb explode after ignition had me on edge..

[oldspark]

Giod, can you provide the link where skylighter talks about ramming metals?

[Shadowcat1969]

Fred,

I never said that changing to an aluminum rammer would somehow make things all better. But using steel in this context is just not a good idea, it adds a lot more possiblity for accidents. I simply stated, yes, change to aluminum, as nobody had yet said it.

 

Also, my "advice" about particle size and rammer clearance was based on an article published by Ned Gorski. I think he probably knows what he's talking about.

 

I simply stated a very short synopsis of what the article describes in detail.

 

And since there are numerous projects out there in which folks, like Ned Gorski, have one ramming metals in various compositions, like Titanium and FeTi in Gerbs or small rockets, I think that it is not somthing to completely disregard.

 

Yes a press is a much better idea, and one that I heartily endorse (it's the second thing I built, after my ball mill). But, especially on a small scale, ramming has it's place.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Shadowcat1969

[giod]

Giod, can you provide the link where skylighter talks about ramming metals?

 

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/Fireworks-Fountains-Gerbs.asp

 

[Shadowcat1969]

There are actually other projects that involve the same thing, basically. Add to that the numerous projects in the "TurboPyro" kit, all designed by Ned for Skylighter, that have the same basic construction techniques.

 

Again, a press is generally better, for multiple reasons, but in reality, the issue of friction between metal particles/rammer/tube while not as bad when compressing the composition are still going to happen exactly the same from withdrawal of the rammer from the tube whether hand ramming or pressing.

 

Hence the particle size issue I touched on above. I really want to find that article to link it.

[Col]

this one?

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/screening-metal-powders.asp

[Shadowcat1969]

Thank you Col, I knew it was on there somewhere, but I couldn't spend much time searching for it.

[fredhappy]

Shadowcat: I did not mean to have my reply come across as being negative about your opinion . Ramming is a bit of a touchy subject imo. You bring up a good point about friction occuring during the withdrawal of the rammer. This indeed is something to take into account.

 

I read the article, I think it was well written.

 

I cringe every time I hear of an accident where somebody damaged his hand during the course of ramming a rocket/gerb . I wish those accidents did not happen anymore . I always feel obliged to vent my opinion about safety matters. When we all do this, hopefully we will be able to prevent any more accidents from occuring. Again, in most accidents blackpowder/blackpowder mixes are involved.

 

I am glad we all seem to agree on the fact that buying a press is a smart thing to do once you get down to making gerbs/rockets.

 

giod: how about buying/making that press and feeling a little bit less worried in the future?

 

best

 

Fred

Edited September 17, 2013 by fredhappy

[giod]

 

I am glad we all seem to agree on the fact that buying a press is a smart thing to do once you get down to making gerbs/rockets.

 

giod: how about buying/making that press and feeling a little bit less worried in the future?

 

best

 

Fred

 

Going to harbor freight this week. will pick one up for sure. last night was kind if a wake up call. I REALLY like my fingers.. Having suffered a debilitating injury to my wrist 2 years ago, I don't ever want to go through months of rehab on a hand again. (That on was motorcycle related). Anyway I am enjoying my new hobby, and see endless things to try, I hate to give up on it now, I just want to do things that are "relatively" safe in practice. Pyro is fun, but not worth losing digits. Honestly the ramming of metals/BP makes me more nervous than mixing flash.

[Shadowcat1969]

Fred: No worries, I simply wanted to expand on what I had initially written because it was obviously not clear enough. I like to have enough clarity that someone new won't be going out trying something on my account and be unsafe. I also wanted to site the resources as someone reliable and not just my opinion.

 

Safety is definitley number one!

Edited September 17, 2013 by Shadowcat1969

[Mumbles]

That particle size thing is for the protection of your rammers and tools. It really has no impact on sparking potential or ignition dangers. It's also mostly for tools like star plates and comet pumps where you have metal pins and a matching female plate/sleeve. Doing this on a paper tube would probably scratch your tools, but also just tear up the paper of the tube.

 

There are some people who feel comfortable ramming gerbs and stuff containing less than XX% metal content. I've done it with aluminum and magnalium before. I do agree that anything containing steel or titanium/titanium alloys does make me fairly nervous and isn't something I tend to do. Pressing is ideal for this situation.

[giod]

Thanks for chiming in Mumbles, I respect you knowledge and experience, I was hoping to hear from you on this... Finally got nervous for the first time in this hobby.. Probably a good thing.. Thanks..

[Bobosan]

http://www.skylighte...tains-Gerbs.asp

 

Unless I'm mistaken, in that article, a non-metal containing BP mix was rammed for first few fuel increments to cover the nozzle spindle and then the fuel containing the metals was rammed with a wood dowel. They also mentioned a solid clay bulkhead with non-metal containing BP rammed for first couple increments which would allow the bulkhead to be drilled later after ramming remainder of metal bearing fuel with a wood dowel.

 

Could the metal particles spark together when compacted this way?

[BarbJebez]

As this and other gerb articles have been my main focus for the past few weeks, I feel confident enough to point out that when deciding to ram gerbs or other items:

1. While using a nozzle forming tool set, the first increment of fuel is always suggested to be BP (or other non-metal starter) to prevent pinching metal particles between the hollow rammer and the nipple.
   
2. Marking your flat-faced rammers with a no-pass line to ensure that you don't contact the nipple once you switch over to your metal-containing comp.
   
3. While not mentioned in this one specifically, it is mentioned in others that the author feels comfortable ramming spherical titanium as it has no sharp edges to grind against itself but recommends pressing for sponge ti or other metals for safety.
   

Personally, as I only have homemade wooden gerb sets so far, item 2 isn't as much of an issue. I do follow items 1 and 3 as I need to hand drill my nozzles and don't want the bit to contact metal once it's through the clay and I press any comp containing metals other than spherical ti.

[nater]

I usually press everything, but I do ram a few things out in the field from time to time. I have -lightly- rammed gerbs with spherical titanium for sparks and magnalium as fuel. I wouldn't ram them as hard as ramming a rocket, more like lightly tamping to just consolidate the comp. I also always press or ram BP only around the nipple. Not only does it prevent damage to the tooling from the metals, but I think it helps ignition. I use BP for the first increment and BP/comp as the second, just like step priming stars.

[50AE]

I've rammed gerbs based on black powder and coarse charcoal, aluminium, magnalium. I think most nitrate compositions are hard to ignite by shock. I used to dampen my mixture with a bit of alcohol though, to prevent annoying floating dust.

[giod]

I've rammed gerbs based on black powder and coarse charcoal, aluminium, magnalium. I think most nitrate compositions are hard to ignite by shock. I used to dampen my mixture with a bit of alcohol though, to prevent annoying floating dust.

 

So you would ram Titanium? sponge and FeTi?