Question regarding a formula

[Areonic]

Hello, I am new to these forums, but I was suggested by someone to come here with my question. We run an organization for veterans, and being a disabled vet myself I spend my time helping others. I'm not new when it comes to pyro, so please don't think that, but I am struggling with a certain smoke formula. I know there is the easy sugar and PN, but my goal is this one for reasons. The one I am trying to perfect is:

 

Potassium nitrate.................................4

Charcoal..........................................5

Sulfur............................................10

Wood dust.........................................3

 

 

I don't know if the way I am prepping it is the cause, the way I tube it, or what. I have not been able to find any info regarding this formula. I have tried it by weight, parts, and added little bits of things that I thought would help. I have scattered reactions on each one I make, Each time I make a batch I slightly make changes to try to fix it, but seems I am just scattering all across the field. I've had them do nothing, I've had them start working perfect for 2 seconds, then just become a slowly burning thick powder that when you pour out the tube creates a stream of fire so I have had many reactions. I don't know if maybe because its getting too much air if that matters or not. The goal is to get it as close to bought ones as possible, but obviously not doing so. We have a re-enactment group that we are working with who asked us to make some things, my military experience has taught me to make a lot, but we never made smoke. So if anyone can help me with this, I would really appreciate it.

 

Thank you,

Shawn

Edited September 7, 2013 by areonic1

[Mumbles]

I suspect it's your formula. There doesn't appear to be enough oxidizer at approximately 20%. You'd probably have to double or triple the amount of potassium nitrate to get it burning well. I included a simple formula below from Weingart (I think), just to give you some reference to the amount of nitrate used. It contains about 40% KNO3 by mass.

 

Sulfur - 16

Potassium Nitrate - 12

Charcoal - 1

[Areonic]

I'm assuming the wood dust is to slow it down? The formula that I had up there is just all over the internet, but doesn't say what or how. I wanted a smoke mix that can easily be put into tubes or containers, so not the cooked sugar mix. More of a powder. Now, would you also suggest when packing it, to have it loosely or pack it tight? Also, in your formula, is that by parts or weight? I also thank you for responding.

 

If you want proof that this is for my veteran organization, I don't mind giving the link to the website www.theprovet.com

 

Shawn

Edited September 8, 2013 by areonic1

[pyrojig]

White smoke

Source: "Mengen en Roeren"[6], page 224.

Comments:

Preparation:

Potassium nitrate.................................4

Charcoal..........................................5

Sulfur............................................10

Wood dust.........................................3

 

Im sure this is the source of your comp. The wood meal can be replaced with the charcoal ( maybe a 36mesh) v.s. a air float. The comp should perform well, but there are many more out there that use chlorate and perform way better .;

[Areonic]

I have wood dust for it. We have a wood mill in our town and they let me come get dust, flakes and several different sizes. I guess what Im asking, since it gives no way to do it, do I just ball mill it, back it tight in a tube and hope for the best?

 

 

What would be a good Chlorate version if you don't mind me asking?

[dangerousamateur]

A well proven mixture for a smoke device is 60 parts KNO3, 40 normal sugar and + 30-40 parts paraffin wax.

 

If you have chlorate try 3 parts chlorate, 2 parts lactose and 2 parts ammonium chloride.

[Areonic]

I very much know the sugar mix and was avoiding it due to the ability to get the thick mess down tubes and have full consistent smoke bombs. That's what set me on a journey to a powder version, so its easier and better to package.

[pyrokid]

I do believe that KNO3/Sucrose mixtures have successfully been used as powders in the past. Give it a try.

[Arthur]

The trouble with an ingredients list like that is that so much is missing. Charcoal -it usually matters what wood is used and what particle size, Is it to be milled together or just pressed - lots of times the packing of smokes is more important than the precise composition.

 

Yes it's likely that the wood meal is to slow the reaction

[Areonic]

The trouble with an ingredients list like that is that so much is missing. Charcoal -it usually matters what wood is used and what particle size, Is it to be milled together or just pressed - lots of times the packing of smokes is more important than the precise composition.

 

Yes it's likely that the wood meal is to slow the reaction

 

 

You are right, it seems no where there is a real comp to make something decent at large amounts. I did try a sugar/PN combo and instead of cooking it, I ground it to powder and ball milled it for 30mins. It ignites, but the smoke seems too light like it just went up way too fast. We have a test building we use for stuff, and tried it in there and it went straight to the ceiling and stayed there. The entire room was clear except the ceiling. So I don't know how to make it heave to stay in the area. My goal is honestly to make something close to the kind you buy. I understand that most people just do the melt sugar thing, but trying to tube that and do it in large quantities I just don't see it working. Hell, I couldn't even pack a 1"x2" tube due to it not going down. That's why I moved to find a powder way. So if you have any suggestions, or something that is a known working, really thick I would appreciate it. My end goal is to have it thick enough to not see through, even if its black I don't care. It just seems there are so many smoke comps, but no proof of working, no info on its methods as in thickness, does it stick low or raise to the sky fast etc. We are an organization that accepts no money what so ever so we cant just buy one of every chemical to test for fun. Project Veteran (www.theprovet.com) focuses on helping in a different way than needs, you could take 5 mins to go there to understand what we (my wife and I) do and my background. The problem is when you get qualified for ordnance and explosives, they don't worry about teaching you smoke, they are factory made. Anyways, I am still looking for a smoke comp that fits my needs, so if anyone can help, I might even be able to scrounge up a little and Paypal it to you for your time.

[psyco_1322]

I suspect it's your formula. There doesn't appear to be enough oxidizer at approximately 20%. You'd probably have to double or triple the amount of potassium nitrate to get it burning well. I included a simple formula below from Weingart (I think), just to give you some reference to the amount of nitrate used. It contains about 40% KNO3 by mass.

 

Sulfur - 16

Potassium Nitrate - 12

Charcoal - 1

 

I'm going to second this formula, because I have used it, and it works well. I've rammed it into 3/4" tubes, about 2" long, making a 1/8" hole in the clay end plug as the vent. The comp burns nice and slow and puts out a good amount of dense white smoke. It can be had to get lit sometimes, but once it starts, there really is no issue. I would mix a bit of bp and the smoke comp for a thin first fire layer in the smokers. You probably should not ram it really hard as if making rockets, but a good few hits to consolidate the fuel.

 

That formula with the sawdust came from a large collection of strange formulas. I have seen several from the source that just are not good formulas.

[Areonic]

I'm going to second this formula, because I have used it, and it works well. I've rammed it into 3/4" tubes, about 2" long, making a 1/8" hole in the clay end plug as the vent. The comp burns nice and slow and puts out a good amount of dense white smoke. It can be had to get lit sometimes, but once it starts, there really is no issue. I would mix a bit of bp and the smoke comp for a thin first fire layer in the smokers. You probably should not ram it really hard as if making rockets, but a good few hits to consolidate the fuel.

 

That formula with the sawdust came from a large collection of strange formulas. I have seen several from the source that just are not good formulas.

 

Are you saying the formula:

Sulfur - 16

Potassium Nitrate - 12

Charcoal - 1

is the one you did and it worked well? Also I had another question. Can it depend a lot on how its packaged? Say for an example a 1" tube with no cover wont do as well as a plug due to too much air? Because I tried a mixture, and did what you said about the BP, and I'm using metal pipe so I can re-use and not waste tubes, so I even experimented with different size washers. Based on that, my opinion seems that having a washer to make the hole smaller, works better than a huge open hole, as if because of the small hole its blasting the smoke out. Sadly I forgot what the formula was because at that point I was trying different things so I cant say i would be able to get that again sadly, but it was flawless. If you are saying that the mixture I quoted is the one you are saying works great, please confirm that. Is that in parts, or weight, will ball milling it make it work better etc. I can use all the advice I can get at this point. Thank you in advance.

 

Shawn

[psyco_1322]

Are you saying the formula:

Sulfur - 16

Potassium Nitrate - 12

Charcoal - 1

is the one you did and it worked well? Also I had another question. Can it depend a lot on how its packaged? Say for an example a 1" tube with no cover wont do as well as a plug due to too much air? Because I tried a mixture, and did what you said about the BP, and I'm using metal pipe so I can re-use and not waste tubes, so I even experimented with different size washers. Based on that, my opinion seems that having a washer to make the hole smaller, works better than a huge open hole, as if because of the small hole its blasting the smoke out. Sadly I forgot what the formula was because at that point I was trying different things so I cant say i would be able to get that again sadly, but it was flawless. If you are saying that the mixture I quoted is the one you are saying works great, please confirm that. Is that in parts, or weight, will ball milling it make it work better etc. I can use all the advice I can get at this point. Thank you in advance.

 

Shawn

 

Yes, that is the formula I was talking about. It does not work out in the open, nor in an open ended tube. It needs to be restricted, with a nozzle/plug. If not it will try to burn with an open flame and you really won't get much smoke. I was saying that the mix is sometimes hard to get lit, so the first (burning) increment can be a mix of the smoke comp and some bp, to aid the ignitability. There should be no need to mill the comp, if all your chems are fine, just screen the mix 3 times and you will be good to go.

 

If you get some white glue and some mannella folders, or even cardstock, you can roll your own tubes pretty easy. You really should not be using steel pipe and washers.