Occasional depression thread

[mormanman]

1) If you are a hobbyist experimenter, you should have in your possession, a copy of the ATF Newsletter (vol. 2, 1990, p.11) documenting the BATF’s position that a federal license is not required in many cases.

Where can I find this?

[FrankRizzo]

Where can I find this?

 

Here's a more current newsletter that states the same (page 5):

ATF_Explosvies_Newsletter_June_2004.pdf

[mormanman]

So its saying that I can make legally and be safe from the federal law but just can't sell.

Why would I sell? I love making and keeping and shooting.

You said that this don't cover me from local laws though right?

[TheSidewinder]

That is correct.

 

States, Municipalities, and Counties (or any other authority having jurisdiction) may enact restrictions of their own.

 

That's why it's nice if you live in a fireworks-friendly State.

[Mumbles]

There is also a difference between selling, and being in commerce. Transportation becomes another issue that is about as clear as mud as well.

 

I'm not sure how the law applies to minors. In general, I'd say you're still illegal. You have to be 18 to be licensed, whether that is for insurance purposes or legal purposes I don't know. I'd err on the side of caution and say that if you can't be legally licensed, you can't manufacture.

[tentacles]

Minors can manufacture at the PGI conventions - there has been some discussion on this recently in the PGI mailing list, I think it was. They are even covered under the PGI insurance, but only as long as the PGI is not in commerce - hence they want to seperate the all stars from the other manufacturing, as the lawyer said it could be construed as being in commerce, since it's a billed attraction or somesuch. This isn't the case with the competition, since it's competitive, I guess.

[Mumbles]

Really? Everything I've seen about the manufacturing at PGI stated that no underage people could partake. Maybe there was some permission slip or something. Well, minors would at least need adult supervision I would imagine, PGI or not.

[Swede]

I've just spent 6 hours researching and ordering crap online for this perchlorate cell project. It is unbelievable how expensive CPVC is. It must be 5% platinum or something. All I want is a 1 foot section of 4" CPVC pipe. How hard do you think that could be?

 

I dare anyone to find someone who will sell 1 foot of 4" cpvc pipe. I know of only one, the shortpile plastics guy. Everyone else assumes you are building a damned refinery, and need at least 10' if not a pallet. U.S. Plastics sells 5' sections... for $100. A simple cpvc end cap is $25. A 1/2" X 12" X 12" sheet is $50. I'm not even sure I need cpvc rather than plain pvc. All I know is things can get very hot, and the last thing I need is a perchlorate cell failing.

 

<grump>

[FrankRizzo]

You're going at this from a chemical engineering perspective, not as a practical chemist. You're not building a perchlorate plant are you? Remember, some parts of your apparatus are better suited to being disposable.

[tentacles]

Really? Everything I've seen about the manufacturing at PGI stated that no underage people could partake. Maybe there was some permission slip or something. Well, minors would at least need adult supervision I would imagine, PGI or not.

 

There was even a class or two specifically for young pyros. Making small caduceus rockets or something, the kids even got to make the rockets themselves. Without question, some sort of supervision is required, a parent most likely.

[mormanman]

I think the young uns are under the umbrella license b/c I think thats how fireants is. Its a guess I don't know but I think thats what it is.

[Mumbles]

The PGI classes probably used class C fireworks, where they can fire them under adult supervision or something. Thats how the minigirandola contest works at the WPAG. Probably just be noted that just because they allow it, doesn't mean it's legal.

 

As far as I know, to be covered under a licence, you must legally be able to have your name put on it as an authorized person. This means 21 for primary person, 18 for "employee posessor". I do wonder if you're a felon, have drug convitions, or whatever else would exclude you, if you'd be covered. It's in the orange book last time I checked.

 

WPAG, Crackerjacks, and a few others have pretty strict 18/21+ rules. No one under 18 on the shoot lines. Class C is more lax, but class B, is rather strict about it. If you can't shoot, you generally can't manufacture. I think it's generally based upon insurance than licencing. Most clubs have some clause in their bylaws that they will follow all applicable local, state, and federal laws, and usually follow PGI guidelines. PGI guidelines quite clearly state no one under 18 can shoot, and no one under 21 can be a lead shooter.

 

Mormanman, I am going to be very blunt here. Pull your head out of your ass, and get your act together.

 

You very seriously need to stop assuming stuff, and start producing facts. You're not a member of the fireants, and likely have no real idea how they operate. Meeting a member once doesn't mean you know all about them. You seriously worry me sometimes. Worried that one of these guesses based on little to know practical knowledge will be very dangerous and get someone who doesn't know better hurt.

 

Probably should also be noted that the fireants don't have a manufacturing licence as far as I know, only a user/display licence.

[Swede]

You're going at this from a chemical engineering perspective, not as a practical chemist. You're not building a perchlorate plant are you? Remember, some parts of your apparatus are better suited to being disposable.

 

Haha! You're probably right, in fact I know you are, but that's just the way I work, for some reason. Complexity appeals to me. The thing is, I really do want a system that I don't have to baby sit, and that will last for years, not weeks. I also found myself rebuilding cells more than I expected to.

[tentacles]

Mumbles: Here's some clips from the relevant conversations on the list:

It all started when someone asked for a copy of the PGI's release form...

 

someone else asked

"Could this run afoul of any regulations by the ATF on minors and minimum age for licensure?"

 

Karl replied:

"18 is the federal min. age to shoot class B and / or manufacturer devices.

Insurance will not cover under age resources in an area that they are not

supposed to be in. Please check with your clubs Legal Counsel and insurance

carrier for the legal limits for both of these I am not a Lawyer but these

are the rules we follow."

 

and then replied to himself:

 

"I stand corrected.

 

As far as the PGI goes 'Because we are not in Commerce' the age restrictions

do not apply and our [insurance] waiver covers us.

 

Its hard keeping all of this straight.

 

Karl"

 

I know some of the clubs ARE in commerce (do displays, etc) and so they wouldn't be able to have underage persons involved in mfg or shooting. I know the JPA show at Gilette had some stuff that was absolutely not class C, though it was lit with a chain fuse from one of the boards, the kids did get to hand light the boards.

Edited September 13, 2008 by tentacles

[Mumbles]

I had read up to, but no including the point he had corrected himself. It still seems a bit unclear to me. If a minor did ever get hurt/caught, there'd likely be a huge to-do about it with the insurance company and club/guild. The same there would be if an amateur were ever caught with homemade fireworks, and no license. Might be legal, but they're still going to put you through hell before all is said and done.

 

Final discression is still up to the club. To go along with my statement from before. Just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's allowed.

[mormanman]

Mormanman, I am going to be very blunt here. Pull your head out of your ass, and get your act together.

 

You very seriously need to stop assuming stuff, and start producing facts. You're not a member of the fireants, and likely have no real idea how they operate. Meeting a member once doesn't mean you know all about them. You seriously worry me sometimes. Worried that one of these guesses based on little to know practical knowledge will be very dangerous and get someone who doesn't know better hurt.

 

Probably should also be noted that the fireants don't have a manufacturing licence as far as I know, only a user/display licence.

Thats one of the reasons why I said it was a guess. I've talked to some people about how they MIGHT operate and thats about it. I was going to join them but never got around to it. Why would you worry about me anyway? If I mess up its my fault. I don't blame stuff on people unless I know they did it.

You guys know I'm not a boomer either. I'm not going to plan on making something that will blow my hand off. I know a guy and a 3" shell blew up in his hand and the only thing that is wrong with it now is he can't close it right anymore but can still close it fully. That example is just to say that not all fireworks will kill you or blow of a limb. I consider him lucky but still. I know I don't know everything but I do know quite a bit for my age. My knowledge is in many places, not just pyro. I know there are people on here that know more than me but I'm not a dumb ass.

When was the last time you checked there site? LINK Read this, it says that the creation of fireworks for UNLAWFUL USE, I know it doesn't say anything about a license but they still could have a license now. Just as long as it is LAWFUL they do it so if they have a license then it sure as hell is LAWFUL.

[Richtee]

Michigan Sux.

[Pyrohawk]

Amen brother....hehe but I go to OSU so its to be expected that I'd think so.

 

On a sad not, since thats what this thread is for... I have to go back to college Monday. I am gonna miss being able to build and test whenever I want. I feel like I didn't do anything this summer... pyrotechnically or otherwise. I mean I built stuff this summer, but mainly just tried and tested stuff for me and nothing to overly exciting. I still have a 3" blue shell that needs firing before I leave come to think of it.... But I do have my own apartment this year so maybe I can bring some stuff up there and continue to build...just can't fire anything?

[Richtee]

Amen brother....hehe but I go to OSU so its to be expected that I'd think so.

 

Hmmm you'll find campus humbled methinks. I'm not SURE but if USC din't slap sweatervest and company, I'd be surprised.

 

 

Go "boobs" heh.

[flying fish]

Amen brother....hehe but I go to OSU so its to be expected that I'd think so.

 

On a sad not, since thats what this thread is for... I have to go back to college Monday. I am gonna miss being able to build and test whenever I want. I feel like I didn't do anything this summer... pyrotechnically or otherwise. I mean I built stuff this summer, but mainly just tried and tested stuff for me and nothing to overly exciting. I still have a 3" blue shell that needs firing before I leave come to think of it.... But I do have my own apartment this year so maybe I can bring some stuff up there and continue to build...just can't fire anything?

 

At least you had the summer! I go to school during the summer/winter and work during the spring/fall. I had a little time on certain weekends to go home and whip up a couple star batches here and there, but for the most part I'm stuck at school working on Quantum Mechanics and other impossible-to-understand things.

 

And hey, watch with the Michigan bashing. Richtee, what ever happened to "Lake Orion....Where living is a vacation?!?!?!" Well seriously, I hate Ann Arbor and most of the people at UofM should be shot to death with "non-lethal" bean bag rounds (for the sake of irony), but I love the company I work for which is in Ann Arbor. If I end up working full time for them, I might buy a house with a bunch of land in the nearby farm town of Dexter, just so that I can shoot fireworks. I promised my co-workers that I would someday put on a display for them if I could find a good place to shoot.

 

Back in the day my dad and his friends once jammed an OSU vs. MSU game somewhere in a high-OSU-fan-density area with an RF signal generator. Apparently a lot of TV's were smashed! I love that story...

Edited September 14, 2008 by flying fish

[Pyrohawk]

Hmmm you'll find campus humbled methinks. I'm not SURE but if USC din't slap sweatervest and company, I'd be surprised.

 

 

Go "boobs" heh.

 

Hahaha yeah....ahem...maybe a little. That was quite embarrassing actually.

 

I understand your pain flying fish...that does suck you had to stay during summer. I think I would have went crazy... I mean, I like it there well enough but I like it at home better. I'm a farm boy and Columbus is like a freaking different planet.

[Richtee]

And hey, watch with the Michigan bashing. Richtee, what ever happened to "Lake Orion....Where living is a vacation?!?!?!" Well seriously, I hate Ann Arbor and most of the people at UofM should be shot to death with "non-lethal" bean bag rounds (for the sake of irony),

 

Back in the day my dad and his friends once jammed an OSU vs. MSU game somewhere in a high-OSU-fan-density area with an RF signal generator. Apparently a lot of TV's were smashed! I love that story...

 

Actually I AM a U of M fan. But face it. They sucked yesterday. And last week. And I think I may have discovered a trend in their football program here.

 

Funny on the jamming story :{)

[flying fish]

I don't really follow college sports so much....and I don't really wish death upon the Faculty and students of UofM...but I have had the displeasure of being in the area and I didn't really care for the students that I had run into. I like how arrogant students can be when their whole part of the town reeks of marijuana! Also, there are people at various corners asking you to donate to their cause...but instead of just saying "ok, this is our cause are you interested?" they go on and on and on about how 'important' their cause is (i.e. "the perchlorate levels in the water are actually rising at 5.34ppm a second! All the bluegill might explode! And bluegill are like the dolphins of freshwater! We must stop this but it will take lots of monies...."). And then when you ask them a simple question like "which way to "parking garage x" they are like "how they hell would I know that?" I know it is rude of me, but I learned to run away from such people! And of course, I avoid that part of town when at all possible.

 

Granted, I probably have become prejudiced against UofM from my Job...It is not uncommon for my boss or others at the company to say "this thing is useless....Oh kinda like a UofM student!" I'm sure there's some good people at UofM, but the "college town" atmosphere makes me want to strangle someone.

 

The irony is that I may have to take Chem II as a guest student at UofM because their "spring semester" happens to coincide with my work schedule, such that I could probably take night classes there. In other words, I would go to work, and after the day is over...go to school...and after the spring semester is over I get me some credit to transfer back to my University. The problem is that the chemistry department at my school unfortunately has whacky 3 hour labs which are always going to overlap with the other classes I need.

Edited September 14, 2008 by flying fish

[Mumbles]

I worry because people may confuse your post count with experience, knowledge and expertise. You mention something inaccurate and potentially dangerous, they follow your advise thinking that you know what you're talking about, and poof yet another weapon against the hobby. Now, I admit that is a very extreme example and highly unlikely. Your short-comings, admitedly, are also generally of a non-technical nature which lowers their potential for damage. None-the-less, facts, references, or applicable experience is really something I hope you can start to include in your posts. Largely unfounded speculations do nothing to solve problems or help discussions. I'm not saying that speculation and theory is bad. I'd be a hypocrite for saying so. Much of what I say is speculatory or theoretical, as it has to be when discussing things in an online format. I do however try to do as much research on the subject matter before voicing my opinion on things.

 

Along these lines, and to answer your question, yes of course I did visit the fireant's website prior to making my post. It would be dumb of me not to. If I didn't I'd be doing everything I just asked you not to. Everything would be purely speculatory off of a very limited amount of information I have collected in the past. I specifically went to the bylaws, and just now saw the safety guidelines, which are not in a straight forward place. It does clearly state what I suggested earlier though.

 

"Any persons under the age of 14 must be accompanied by a responsible adult in the class C area. No person under the age of 18 shall discharge, fire, or use any Class B/1.3G material, including aerial shells, ground bombs, or rockets."

 

I would personally consider manufacturing to be covered under the "use" category. Again, it's all up to personal/club interpretation. There was something else in the bylaws that I believe incinuates that you must be 18 to get a full membership. It's likely you'd need a parent to sign up with you for it to be acceptable. I had to wait to turn 18 to join the WPAG.

 

I'm confident that the PAT have a licence, just not certain it is a manufacturing licence. The bylaws discuss meeting with the ATF yearly and managing the magazine records in regard to the Magazine officer. The safety guidelines do mention manufacturing, but no where do I see what type of licence they have. The manufacturing things mentioned pertained to fusing, attachment of lift, attachment of lances to set pieces, etc. That is all the more manufacturing a lot of clubs allow outside of sanctioned seminars, and you are NOT covered at home. Transportation of devices is a foggy area too.

 

Thats one of the reasons why I said it was a guess. I've talked to some people about how they MIGHT operate and thats about it. I was going to join them but never got around to it. Why would you worry about me anyway? If I mess up its my fault. I don't blame stuff on people unless I know they did it.

You guys know I'm not a boomer either. I'm not going to plan on making something that will blow my hand off. I know a guy and a 3" shell blew up in his hand and the only thing that is wrong with it now is he can't close it right anymore but can still close it fully. That example is just to say that not all fireworks will kill you or blow of a limb. I consider him lucky but still. I know I don't know everything but I do know quite a bit for my age. My knowledge is in many places, not just pyro. I know there are people on here that know more than me but I'm not a dumb ass.

When was the last time you checked there site? LINK Read this, it says that the creation of fireworks for UNLAWFUL USE, I know it doesn't say anything about a license but they still could have a license now. Just as long as it is LAWFUL they do it so if they have a license then it sure as hell is LAWFUL.

[oskarchem]

Today, going to a flying lesson, my bike gear box decided to break. So I had to call my mom to get me with the truck, and go to the garage. I'm a little freaked how much it's gonna cost, and plus I don't have my bike for like 2-3 weeks wich is a major problem for me, since I go to school, to flying lessons, and to see friends on it, and my mom isn't too enthousiastic on getting me to school evry day for the next 2-3 weeks. Anyway...