ball milling bp ingredients separately how long?

[SideGlance]

so i want to be 100% safe when making my black powder and i want to mill each part separately.. how long should i mill the p nitrate, sulfur and homemade charcoal ? thanks

[Mumbles]

You might want to take a look at this thread. This topic was recently discussed. In general, there is no reason not to mill the sulfur and charcoal together. It offers no additional risk than doing them separately.

 

http://www.amateurpy...ponent-milling/

[SideGlance]

alright i was thinking that.. but by not ball milling them together affect the performance? i was going to just pour all 3 in a tupperware and shake until mixed

[Mumbles]

I really don't know what effect not milling the sulfur and charcoal together will have. I can tell you that intimate integration of all the components is crucial to getting a product that works well. Shaking them together will not accomplish this. I really suggest reading the pdf I linked to in the other thread. The screening through a 100 mesh screen might seem tedious, but I can speak from experience that it really helps to improve the burn speed.

[ollie1016]

I've heard that it is alot better to ball mill all 3 chemicals together. My reasoning behind this is:

 

If you make proper charcoal ( activated charcoal) it opens up millions of little pores and airspaces in the charcoal structure. Hense the use of charcoal filters in water purification devices.

So the small pieces of kno3 and s get crushed up and fill in/ get I to those pores. This allows for a very thorough mix, on a very small scale. So it is basically mashed into eachother.

 

If you screen/ shake it together you are only 'coating' the chemicals into each other.

 

That's what I think, I'm open to opinions and idea's!

[SideGlance]

interesting ollie but then wouldnt ball milling potassium perchlorate and aluminum make the flash mixture even more powerful ? ( i know it is unsafe to mill metals with oxidizers i use the diaper method ).. i am milling 118 grams of charcoal and sulfur right now been going for about an hour now.. ill let that mill until bedtime then mill the nitrate seperately for 6 hours.. after that is complete i will mix all 3 and dextrin then mill for an hour... im using the rubber jar mill from harbor freight seems to be a very safe ball mill.. i am also using lead balls for grinding media

[patsroom]

Never ever ball mill potassium perchlorate and aluminum together in a ball mill. There are only a few mixes of components that can be mill together. Always use saftey first when using a ball mill.

Black Powder can only be milled if using non-sparking grinding media.

Be safe...................Pat

Edited August 26, 2013 by patsroom

[Mumbles]

Activated charcoal is actually not very good for BP. There are all sorts of theories about what makes certain charcoals good for making BP ranging from volatile content, to amount of graphitic structure, to fragmented cells/rings forming reactive end groups. What is true is that lightweight, fast growing trees tend to make good charcoals. Overly carbonized or pure forms of carbon tend to create slower and less reactive charcoals. Activated charcoal (depending on purpose), while having a very high surface area, also tends to be devoid of volatile content and be very carbonized.

 

There is at least one study that shows that the idea that KNO3 and sulfur get impregnated into the charcoal is not at all true. The pores are simply too small. Milling all three components together achieves both very fine grinding, as well as very intimate mixing.

[psyco_1322]

interesting ollie but then wouldnt ball milling potassium perchlorate and aluminum make the flash mixture even more powerful ? ( i know it is unsafe to mill metals with oxidizers i use the diaper method ).. i am milling 118 grams of charcoal and sulfur right now been going for about an hour now.. ill let that mill until bedtime then mill the nitrate seperately for 6 hours.. after that is complete i will mix all 3 and dextrin then mill for an hour... im using the rubber jar mill from harbor freight seems to be a very safe ball mill.. i am also using lead balls for grinding media

 

If you are eventually going to mill it all together, why not just mill it all together in the first place? It would only be 3-4hrs in the mill if milling all the components together. Then on top of saving 8 hours of milling, you would get better mixing of the chems also.

 

If you are going to mix stuff, at the least, use a screen. 30-40 mesh is good for intimate mixing, running the comp through the screen at least 3 times. The first pass will basically just make sure everything is passing the screen, very little mixing will happen if the comp was not "pre-mixed" in any way. The second pass will get everything mixed together well, a solid color comp should be seen, with maybe some small streaks of unmixed components. The third pass should make the mix quite homogenous, there should be no distinction of colors of chems in the comp. If the comp is something that has a lot of metal fuels, I'll screen the oxidizer, secondary fuels, and binder together till it's mixed well, then screen the metal fuel in. Sometimes chems get chunky and some effort might be required to get them to pass the screen. I would rather grind them through without the main fuel in the mix. If any ignition was to happen, the comp would not be burning very well, making it a bit safer during the mixing. I also do this with large batches of charcoal based comps, screen everything but the charcoal, then screen in the charcoal. It helps to keep the dusty mess down a bit, and the same safety principle.

Edited August 26, 2013 by psyco_1322

[schroedinger]

Maybe think of an other idea, witch was rexommended and used by some european guys a lot of time ago. They wereusing ballmills, but as they got problems with mills blowing up, they started to mill seperatly and then used a mill, with a leather drum, to mix 'em without using media, to avoid ignition by shock.

 

Could be quite interesting to use that way, and a rubber drum should be quite simmilat to a lesther drum

Edited August 26, 2013 by schroedinger

[Shadowcat1969]

I have been running one of these harbor freight mills for 3 years, with lead media and had no issues with the rubber jar. I agree with Psyco, if you are going to use the mill to integrate all the components for an hour, why not just run the whole batch for 4 hours from the start? Just my Two cents......

[ollie1016]

interesting ollie but then wouldnt ball milling potassium perchlorate and aluminum make the flash mixture even more powerful ? ( i know it is unsafe to mill metals with oxidizers i use the diaper method ).. i am milling 118 grams of charcoal and sulfur right now been going for about an hour now.. ill let that mill until bedtime then mill the nitrate seperately for 6 hours.. after that is complete i will mix all 3 and dextrin then mill for an hour... im using the rubber jar mill from harbor freight seems to be a very safe ball mill.. i am also using lead balls for grinding media

 

Ok, First off, NEVER MILL ANY FORM OF FLASH POWDER, or any mix of chemicals that are sensitive to impact.

 

I don't think that ball milling Al and KCl04 together would make it go better. Nothing a good season of diapering couldn't do. I find that when I do make flash, ( along with a lot of other things), I use brown Kraft paper to diaper on. About a 1 foot square piece of paper. This way I can use a wooded spoon to very gently spread the mix and remove any remaining clumps of KClO4. All of my perc is coffee milled before, but can get a bit clumpy after time.

 

I find that 6-7 minutes is a good time for diapering a 10g batch.

 

I'd just pop all your chemicals in together personally. You have a rubber jar, and lead media. I use a HBF ball mill too, that I brought back from the states. Perfect for pyro! And 'cheap'.

[psyco_1322]

Maybe you should just screen your flash, 3 times together and be done with the baby diaper stuff.

[SideGlance]

awesome replies guys... thank you.. so i should not ball mill the charcoal alone? thats takes away from the binding that takes place with kno3 and the sulfur? am i understanding that correctly?

[ollie1016]

awesome replies guys... thank you.. so i should not ball mill the charcoal alone? thats takes away from the binding that takes place with kno3 and the sulfur? am i understanding that correctly?

 

It's a great forum to gain knowledge! I personally mill my charcoal before I mill it for BP, so from ~20mesh to a fine ish powder. Then I put in my granular KNO3, powdered S, and Charcoal. Fill one rubber jar with 2kgs of lead 1/2 media, then 150g of KNO3, 20g of S, and 30g of Charcoal. I let that mill for 8-10 hours. Separate the media out from the mix and start again. It will help alot if you put a bit of light oil onto the bushings on the Ball mill.

 

People have all different theories to which is the best way. This is my way, people will/ might say different, but that's just the way it is!

 

 

[ollie1016]

Activated charcoal is actually not very good for BP. There are all sorts of theories about what makes certain charcoals good for making BP ranging from volatile content, to amount of graphitic structure, to fragmented cells/rings forming reactive end groups. What is true is that lightweight, fast growing trees tend to make good charcoals. Overly carbonized or pure forms of carbon tend to create slower and less reactive charcoals. Activated charcoal (depending on purpose), while having a very high surface area, also tends to be devoid of volatile content and be very carbonized.

 

There is at least one study that shows that the idea that KNO3 and sulfur get impregnated into the charcoal is not at all true. The pores are simply too small. Milling all three components together achieves both very fine grinding, as well as very intimate mixing.

 

With regards to your part on carbon, I've tried a few different forms of carbon, coal, graphite, (charcoal.....), and soot.

 

Charcoal obviously worked the best. Coal gave a slow burn, same with soot, and graphite was hard to get going, and went very slow. Like really bad green mix.

 

I've heard this is due to charcoal having cellulose in its structure. Which helps in some way, I'll research it more when I get access to fast Internet.

[patsroom]

Maybe you should just screen your flash, 3 times together and be done with the baby diaper stuff.

 

Flash needs diapered for safety reasons. Screening flash is a very bad idea (can causes it to BLOWN UP).

Certain chemical mixes should only be mixed by certain ways. There are references on the internet that will tell you which method for which chemicals- learn them first before you harm yourself. If you do not know about the whys and the hows leave it alone till you understand the different in the chemical and mixing of them. They can KILL YOU.

This is messages is for everyone.

[Mumbles]

The best charcoals are nowhere near pure carbon. I'd have to look up figures, but somewhere around 70-75% carbon seems to be the sweet spot.

 

Pat, for most people here that is excellent advice. However it should be noted that it is not universally true that screening flash is unsafe or must never be done. Screening flash is the only safe way to mix large quantities of it. Large quantities of it are required for the safest functioning of large multibreak shells. This said, screening flash is not done the same way as screening a star composition. I really has to be demonstrated, in person, by someone experienced with the technique before ever being attempted. You can and will kill yourself and others if you don't take all the necessary safety precautions.

[patsroom]

I prefer to error on the caution side of things.

I do not mind being corrected as my choice of wording was very broad.

Considering where this topic is being posted it just seem prudent.

Lots of newbies like to make things that go bang before knowing fully the techniques that are needed to make fireworks.

At first I started my first sentence as “I sorry but I prefer to error on the caution side of things. “, but as I thought about it I not sorry.

I prefer that everyone stay safe, as I know that you feel the same.

Without getting into which flash mixes can and can not be screened it is always best to use the diaper method. I just do not think it would be safe starting out with large amount of mixing flash for newbies. ...........Pat

[psyco_1322]

In the fireworks industry, flash is screened. There is not a practical use for the "diapering" method, it's absolutely terrible for mixing things. You could actually create more friction from rubbing the paper together than you would see with screening. Screening doesn't need to be done only with large batches, if you are only mixing 10g, that's fine too.

 

As far as the milling bp, I like to mill chems that are already pretty ground up. If I have chunky charcoal, I throw the required amount in the mill for about 30 minutes, this makes it airfloat. I then dump in the nitrate/sulfur/dextrin blend, kinda shake it up to mix it a bit and put it back on the mill for 3-4hrs. Milling really just grinds the chems superfire and also mixes them together very very well. There really isn't a "binding" going on between the nitrate and sulfur. Oiling your mill is a great piece of advice, not only the motors bearings, but also the bushings the rods spin in. It's like a car, the more you take care of it, the longer it will last (theoretically).

[flying fish]

For those that do diaper flash, 6-7 minutes suggested above for a 10g batch sounds like an insanely long time. Unless I need top performance, I only mix it until it appears uniform in color....still makes the same bang more or less.

[Mumbles]

I don't know why we're even talking about flash anyway.

 

In my opinion, if you're going to mill everything together anyway, there isn't really any reason to only do it for a shorter period of time. About the only thing it'd achieve is limiting your exposure. The same risk is still there. Milling of compositions really should be done in a remote and safe location anyway. If you're intending to pre-mill the fuels and oxidizers at home or something, just to maximize productivity at a safer location, that seems very reasonable.