Lift Charge Dilemma

[pyrojig]

Hmm, this is sounding more and more like a charcoal problem , and maybe a inconsistency in the wood or coating on it ( if 2x4 construction grade). Try a totally diff charcoal to compare with as a third variable . I prefer poplar as a good charcoal . It seems to be everywhere out in the northern states . Edited July 30, 2013 by pyrojig

[Mumbles]

Smaller shells just need more lift, it's a fact of pyro life. On bigger shells I use around 6% 2FA lift. For smaller shells I typically use at least 10% 4FA for lift. Confinement of the lift isn't the only factor. It just gets in performing like I expect in my experience. It doesn't change the fact that you still need a certain amount which is dictated by quality and speed.

 

There are so many factors that go into making BP, that it'd be nearly impossible to say why you and your supplier of charcoal are getting somewhat different results. Different mills and different media will have a noticeable effect, even if all else is identical. From looking at the videos, the whitewood charcoal should be lifting great. Not really sure what to tell you. The burn speed is good, but there is a decent amount of residue. In some cases the production of excess residue (solid products) is as the expense of some of the gaseous products. That wont make the difference between 20 feet and 200 feet though. I'd really expect the confinement thing to be an issue. You should also check the clearance of your shells. You might want to give it another shot, but making sure that there is no more than 5% clearance around your shell, and try making sure your lift charge is nice and tight. Ball shells are always worse for this because they seal the lift gases in less efficiently.

 

I seriously doubt that you could over confine lift by accident. You can however over pressurize a mortar and cause it to fail. This will most likely be an issue with fairly large and heavy shells.

[dynomike1]

Chris let me clarify my statement. This was a plastic canister. Sorry I have a tendency of doing that. Edited July 30, 2013 by dynomike1

[LambentPyro]

Smaller shells just need more lift, it's a fact of pyro life. On bigger shells I use around 6% 2FA lift. For smaller shells I typically use at least 10% 4FA for lift. Confinement of the lift isn't the only factor. It just gets in performing like I expect in my experience. It doesn't change the fact that you still need a certain amount which is dictated by quality and speed.

 

There are so many factors that go into making BP, that it'd be nearly impossible to say why you and your supplier of charcoal are getting somewhat different results. Different mills and different media will have a noticeable effect, even if all else is identical. From looking at the videos, the whitewood charcoal should be lifting great. Not really sure what to tell you. The burn speed is good, but there is a decent amount of residue. In some cases the production of excess residue (solid products) is as the expense of some of the gaseous products. That wont make the difference between 20 feet and 200 feet though. I'd really expect the confinement thing to be an issue. You should also check the clearance of your shells. You might want to give it another shot, but making sure that there is no more than 5% clearance around your shell, and try making sure your lift charge is nice and tight. Ball shells are always worse for this because they seal the lift gases in less efficiently.

 

I seriously doubt that you could over confine lift by accident. You can however over pressurize a mortar and cause it to fail. This will most likely be an issue with fairly large and heavy shells.

 

My friend had an issue with his BP's speed, so I sent him the same homemade charcoal I am using now and he used 8% lift for a shell he made with it, but he learned how to make his own charcoal and now he makes Poplar and still uses 8%. I was asking someone about excess residue from my BP, why does it have so much residue, and why is the gas a thick yellow? How much in length is 5% for a 3" and 4"

 

Hmm, this is sounding more and more like a charcoal problem , and maybe a inconsistency in the wood or coating on it ( if 2x4 construction grade). Try a totally diff charcoal to compare with as a third variable . I prefer poplar as a good charcoal . It seems to be everywhere out in the northern states .

 

I have some Poplar charcoal that I'll make 100 grams out of it, I've never made BP with Poplar charcoal. I made the charcoal from thee hobby sticks they have, no knots at all and it was expensive, lol!

[Mumbles]

The quick and dirty way to calculate 5% is to multiply the nominal diameter of the shell by 3, and that should be your circumference. A 3" shell should be around 9" around, a 4" shell should be around 12" around, etc. Remember that pi times diameter = circumference. 3 just happens to be conveniently about 95% of pi.

[LambentPyro]

The quick and dirty way to calculate 5% is to multiply the nominal diameter of the shell by 3, and that should be your circumference. A 3" shell should be around 9" around, a 4" shell should be around 12" around, etc. Remember that pi times diameter = circumference. 3 just happens to be conveniently about 95% of pi.

 

So, the circumference should be 9"?

[LambentPyro]

Update:

 

I found another fellow on YouTube who contacted me regarding the issue. It sounds like, so far, that we have the exact same process of making our BP and shells, and we experienced the same problem.

 

I'm going to find out where he obtains his chemicals and how he makes his charcoal. If we use the same place. I'm going to try and see if I can get my chems somewhere different.

 

I'll keep this thread updated when I get further information.

 

 

Update:

My problem has been figured out, it's my KNO3. Mumbles was right, I think you said check the impurity of it. Well, as it turns out, Haifa puts Phosphates in their product, it's actually very good though.................for farming. As it so happens to turn out, we're not farmers, we're Pyrotechnicians, phosphate=contaminated BP.

 

I'm not going to publicly say who I bought my chems from as I'm not going to ruin a part of someone's business. Owning one is very difficult and I'm not here to destroy that and be a muckraker as all the other product is fantastic.

 

If you'd still like to know, message me. But guys please don't go making a fuss about it, if you have the same problem, just switch your supplier for KNO3, odds are its the same way to resolve it.

Edited October 7, 2013 by LambentPyrotechnics

[LambentPyro]

Well, I'm back to square one, here's a new test of just MEAL powder.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syock73dBWQ

Edited October 15, 2013 by LambentPyrotechnics

[Algenco]

Well, I'm back to square one, here's a new test of just MEAL powder.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syock73dBWQ

looks fine to me

[nt8]

Well, I'm back to square one, here's a new test of just MEAL powder.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syock73dBWQ

This is not seem slow!

This made with Haifa KNO3? or something else KNO3?

[LambentPyro]

This is not seem slow!

This made with Haifa KNO3? or something else KNO3?

PCS and HCS say they use Haifa.

 

 

See guys, the thing is, there is no hurt in using 15%, but, I can't get it consistently. Sometimes it will work fine, and sometimes the shell goes WAY too high. So when I decide to use 13% or something around there, it goes wayy to low or it works fine. I should be getting consistent powder.

 

What I'll try is taking the mill off every so often and un-clump the crap in there.

Edited October 16, 2013 by LambentPyrotechnics

[Mumbles]

Are you getting variability within the batch? As in, sometimes it works fine and sometimes you get way too high or low breaks from a single batch of lift? If so, that sounds like an issue that might be solved by confining the lift more like we were talking about in the private message. I've talked about this elsewhere on the forum, but I feel like there is a critical pressure that BP has to reach inside of the mortar before it will reach it full potential. If you're not consistently reaching that full potential, you're not going to get consistent performance. Using a lift cup, or confining the lift into a ball reinforced onto the shell can help. Using a finer grain size of BP may also help. I know a few people who use a blend of 2FA and 4FA to hit a little harder for certain lifting purposes.

 

There are other factors too, but in a way they all distill down to the barrel pressure achieved. Tighter fitting shells, like cylinder shells, tend to be more reliable in my experience. Firing in cold temperatures tends to lead to more low breaks in my experience as well. That probably isn't much of an issue for you yet though.

 

If you check on the BP part way through the run, you will learn to tell by the sound how clumped it is. My mill would get louder and and more high pitched when it was basically just the balls striking against each other. I ran my BP for 4hr. There isn't anything special about that number; I tried it and it worked. I had to unclump around hours 2, 3, and about 10 minutes before I took it off. The clumping to me was a sign it was getting well milled and finished. However, it would often trap unmilled particles, so breaking it up occasionally was required. If you're on top of it, some moderate strikes with a rubber mallet would free things up if it hadn't gotten too bad yet.

[LambentPyro]

Are you getting variability within the batch? As in, sometimes it works fine and sometimes you get way too high or low breaks from a single batch of lift? If so, that sounds like an issue that might be solved by confining the lift more like we were talking about in the private message. I've talked about this elsewhere on the forum, but I feel like there is a critical pressure that BP has to reach inside of the mortar before it will reach it full potential. If you're not consistently reaching that full potential, you're not going to get consistent performance. Using a lift cup, or confining the lift into a ball reinforced onto the shell can help. Using a finer grain size of BP may also help. I know a few people who use a blend of 2FA and 4FA to hit a little harder for certain lifting purposes.

 

There are other factors too, but in a way they all distill down to the barrel pressure achieved. Tighter fitting shells, like cylinder shells, tend to be more reliable in my experience. Firing in cold temperatures tends to lead to more low breaks in my experience as well. That probably isn't much of an issue for you yet though.

 

If you check on the BP part way through the run, you will learn to tell by the sound how clumped it is. My mill would get louder and and more high pitched when it was basically just the balls striking against each other. I ran my BP for 4hr. There isn't anything special about that number; I tried it and it worked. I had to unclump around hours 2, 3, and about 10 minutes before I took it off. The clumping to me was a sign it was getting well milled and finished. However, it would often trap unmilled particles, so breaking it up occasionally was required. If you're on top of it, some moderate strikes with a rubber mallet would free things up if it hadn't gotten too bad yet.

 

I see exactly what you're saying Mumbles, confinement does matter. A friend on YouTube that I have been talking to since I started has an interesting story with me and the charcoal. Hear me out:

 

He used to use Royal Oak Charcoal for his BP and had to use like 30% of the shells weight, I mean, a lot of BP. Last year around the same time right now, I was using Generic Airfloat and was getting very slow BP and just was burning really shitty, especially because I had like 300 grams in one batch for a couple hours. So what I did is bought some Willow Charcoal from a supplier in England, which was Airfloat and Black Willow from PCS and I made BP and was impressed, it was the fastest I had, and I used 5% Dextrin with it. I wanted to explore the Charcoal, so I watched NHIL's tutorial on making Charcoal and followed it.

 

I made a batch of whitewood 2x3 (not 2x4) from HD as I referred to constantly in my video as Doug Fir, which it wasn't. I told my friend on YouTube he had to try this Charcoal out, and I included a sheet with some notes about the BP, not to mill too much at once, mill for a while depending on your amount of media, and use this charcoal. He obtained 10% lift using MY charcoal I sent him.

 

With that Charcoal, and I actually still have the same charcoal I first ever cooked, I made batches using the Charcoal from the same batch I sent him, I thought since he can put this lift in a Dixie cup and glue it, and use 10% to lift 3" and 4" shells, well, I thought I can too, so I did that, and I had a 3" shell go 20 feet up in the air and blast the stars everywhere, and one actually hit my foot. I don't understand how I sent him Charcoal from the same batch I used to make my BP and he was able to use 10% and I couldn't. It really baffles me, and it's something that does not seem like a big deal, but when something serious like this is inconsistent, it can pose a threat to me and others.

 

The only thing we have differing in our method and a lot of others who use 10% that I know of, they do not use Pb/Sb Hardened 1/2" grinding media, they use the Ceramic stuff or Alumna or whatever it's called from PyroCreations or whatever supplier supplies them, I don't know if the lead or metal is grinding up in my powder as 24 hours is a long time, and my milling media is very lumpy right now and one of them is actually shaped like a shark tooth, it's so bizarre!! I have a lot of little lead pebbles that are very small, like 1/4" in diameter and are flattened. I'll count my media and see if I I still have 200 balls or something around there, as that's exactly how many I started out with. This milling media is over a year old already and was never changed.

 

By the way, here is the part 2 of the video, using KNO3 from my usual supplier, with Black Willow Charcoal, again, Meal Powder test. I granulated it today, along with yesterday's test and after tomorrow's Meal Powder test, I will granulate it and then compare all three again, but this time granulated.

 

watch?v=H9hY20DnTIE

Edited October 17, 2013 by LambentPyrotechnics

[Algenco]

I see exactly what you're saying Mumbles, confinement does matter. A friend on YouTube that I have been talking to since I started has an interesting story with me and the charcoal. Hear me out:

 

He used to use Royal Oak Charcoal for his BP and had to use like 30% of the shells weight, I mean, a lot of BP. Last year around the same time right now, I was using Generic Airfloat and was getting very slow BP and just was burning really shitty, especially because I had like 300 grams in one batch for a couple hours. So what I did is bought some Willow Charcoal from a supplier in England, which was Airfloat and Black Willow from PCS and I made BP and was impressed, it was the fastest I had, and I used 5% Dextrin with it. I wanted to explore the Charcoal, so I watched NHIL's tutorial on making Charcoal and followed it.

 

I made a batch of whitewood 2x3 (not 2x4) from HD as I referred to constantly in my video as Doug Fir, which it wasn't. I told my friend on YouTube he had to try this Charcoal out, and I included a sheet with some notes about the BP, not to mill too much at once, mill for a while depending on your amount of media, and use this charcoal. He obtained 10% lift using MY charcoal I sent him.

 

With that Charcoal, and I actually still have the same charcoal I first ever cooked, I made batches using the Charcoal from the same batch I sent him, I thought since he can put this lift in a Dixie cup and glue it, and use 10% to lift 3" and 4" shells, well, I thought I can too, so I did that, and I had a 3" shell go 20 feet up in the air and blast the stars everywhere, and one actually hit my foot. I don't understand how I sent him Charcoal from the same batch I used to make my BP and he was able to use 10% and I couldn't. It really baffles me, and it's something that does not seem like a big deal, but when something serious like this is inconsistent, it can pose a threat to me and others.

 

The only thing we have differing in our method and a lot of others who use 10% that I know of, they do not use Pb/Sb Hardened 1/2" grinding media, they use the Ceramic stuff or Alumna or whatever it's called from PyroCreations or whatever supplier supplies them, I don't know if the lead or metal is grinding up in my powder as 24 hours is a long time, and my milling media is very lumpy right now and one of them is actually shaped like a shark tooth, it's so bizarre!! I have a lot of little lead pebbles that are very small, like 1/4" in diameter and are flattened. I'll count my media and see if I I still have 200 balls or something around there, as that's exactly how many I started out with. This milling media is over a year old already and was never changed.

 

By the way, here is the part 2 of the video, using KNO3 from my usual supplier, with Black Willow Charcoal, again, Meal Powder test. I granulated it today, along with yesterday's test and after tomorrow's Meal Powder test, I will granulate it and then compare all three again, but this time granulated.

 

watch?v=H9hY20DnTIE

 

that isn't a lift problem, time fuse or some type of leak causing premature detonation

If the lift was so weak that the shell only went 20' in the air it would have been laying on the ground when it broke

 

[LambentPyro]

that isn't a lift problem, time fuse or some type of leak causing premature detonation

If the lift was so weak that the shell only went 20' in the air it would have been laying on the ground when it broke

 

Nope, the time fuse lasted the full delay I had it set for, it did not break early, the lift was very weak too, it was like "poof." The fuse burned the three seconds I set it for, I didn't say that, but I know it wasn't that for sure.

[WonderBoy]

Maybe I missed it, but what size screen are you granulating your meal with after it comes out of the mill jar?

 

 

WB

[LambentPyro]

Maybe I missed it, but what size screen are you granulating your meal with after it comes out of the mill jar?

 

 

WB

Just a kitchen colander, like 20-30 mesh or so. I've tried doing 4 mesh chunks, which honestly had no difference in burn rate IMO, but confined, I'm pretty sure that's where the difference comes in.

 

The weird thing is, when I granulate, I get all different sizes, I'll even get meal powder along with it. I just don't get one size when I granulate, I get from the 20 mesh or so all the way down to like 100 mesh

 

I just granulated some stuff and I used like a gram or so dissolved in 175 mL of Dextrin in 30% Isopropanol/Water solution. The granules definitely didn't finish drying as the test today I took produced a crackle effect from water content in there still, but even at the dampness they are now, they're still pretty rock hard. They all clumped together and I had to break apart the rocks, which a lot of it fell to dust. The outside of the rocks were hard, but the inside were moist.

Edited October 18, 2013 by LambentPyrotechnics

[LambentPyro]

Here are my results:

 

(Part 1 and 2 Recap)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syock73dBWQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9hY20DnTIE

 

Part 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbg7vFH-wbg

 

Part 4:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vFewKf-2AM

 

Part 5: (Warning, contains explicit blooper content at the end!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26xcbqxo6aA

 

One more to go...

Edited October 24, 2013 by LambentPyrotechnics

[pyrojig]

The last test and others look fair in burn speed. Not quite sure what happend to the bp that failed to ignite on the last clips. Usually bp is very thirsty for fire, and just the hint of it around will set it off. Your powder sounds driven in with moisture . You could force dry it with a dehydrator or star drying chamber. But strangely my powder even wet still ignites w/o a prob.

[LambentPyro]

The last test and others look fair in burn speed. Not quite sure what happend to the bp that failed to ignite on the last clips. Usually bp is very thirsty for fire, and just the hint of it around will set it off. Your powder sounds driven in with moisture . You could force dry it with a dehydrator or star drying chamber. But strangely my powder even wet still ignites w/o a prob.

 

The fuse hole was too big the second time, but the first time, the fuse wasn't in all the way, and a 65 ft roll of that costed me $2, it was cheap crap.

 

Some of my videos from the fourth showed how they stopped right in the middle of burning for no reason. It still works though...

 

I have a drying chamber, but the heater keeps overheating and stops after 5 minutes. Didn't know I can put GBP in a dehydrator.

Edited October 26, 2013 by LambentPyrotechnics

[pyrojig]

If you line the trays with tissue paper then you have something . Just make sure to leave the middle open for the updraft.

Cheap crap fuse has its place, and if it gets the job done then all is good.

[LambentPyro]

If you line the trays with tissue paper then you have something . Just make sure to leave the middle open for the updraft.

Cheap crap fuse has its place, and if it gets the job done then all is good.

 

Or Kraft paper.

[andyboy]

Moisture shouldn't be a problem unless your BP is soggy wet. Slightly moist BP will burn faster then completly dry BP.

[pyrokid]

That meal from the third vid looked just fine! Granulate that and use it!

 

I'll say that I feel that 1/2" media might be a bit on the large size in a harbor freight jar. I use a HF jar with 3/8" zirc media, which I suspect is severely undercharged, and run it around 6 hours at around 75 rpm, and get fast bp using hardware store timber charcoal. I use 10% shell weight for lift.

[LambentPyro]

That meal from the third vid looked just fine! Granulate that and use it!

 

I'll say that I feel that 1/2" media might be a bit on the large size in a harbor freight jar. I use a HF jar with 3/8" zirc media, which I suspect is severely undercharged, and run it around 6 hours at around 75 rpm, and get fast bp using hardware store timber charcoal. I use 10% shell weight for lift.

The media shouldn't be a problem unless the lead is weakening the powder, which I don't think is the case.