Lift Charge Dilemma

[LambentPyro]

Hey All,

Well, I just want to start out by saying I'm happy I finally joined this forum, I've referenced to this forum numerous times for reliable information. As I progress into this field, I think it was time to create an account, because what I am about to ask you, I'm positive many of you can help me with the lots of experience you have.

 

I asked others on a different forum, but this seems to get much more traffic and Id like to experiment with multiple people's suggestions.

 

So on Independence Day, I naturally had a handmade stash to discharge but encountered a few issues, some of which I am working on currently, but the other I am here about now is what I cannot solve.

 

So, my lift is fast, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjOAzrZIaBE, and I have to use 15% to get my 3" shells up to appropriate height, but, my 4" shells get up to perfect height using 10%. Some (including both of my 4" shells and some 3" shells) had a VERY thick rock solid cardboard tube surrounding the sides of my lift pouch. So, the humidity in where I shot them off, but NOT made the BP, is an average of 86% humidity here in Florida. Some 3" Shells lifted to an okay, but a couple WAY too low, and I used the 10% lift for every shell. It could be my scale, but I calibrate it a lot, and it was $275, seems accurate to me, especially for the price.

 

Does this sound like an issue of confinement, moisture? My process of making my black powder is very consistent and get nice results (see from above link).

 

Here is my process:

I start off with my Chicago Tools Dual Drum Ball Mill modified with a stronger drive belt and the rotating bar connected to the pulley has been upgraded to boost the rpm from 60 to about 90.

 

I have 5 LBS. of 1/2" Lead-Hardened With Antimony balls (Roughly 200), I put in my 74.6 grams of KNO3 (Haifa Hammer-Milled from PyroChemSource), 13.5 grams of my homemade white wood charcoal (genus is same as pine)(I say green Doug fir in the video, but I was mistaken, they don't make 2x3 with Green Doug Firs, only 2x4's), and 11.9 grams of sulfur (99.99% pure). I mill it for 1 whole day and then repeat the process until I get about 500 grams. Then I granulate with no dextrin (slow my powder down). In the video above was BP granilated with a kitchen mesh collander, about 20 mesh or so, but on a lot of my lift charge from the holiday (not all), I had screened it through a 4-Mesh screen and got some nice large explosive chunks.

 

I throw them into my drying chamber with a ceramic heater, a possibility of this is it might not be dried enough and thoroughly.

 

I sent a friend my charcoal to see if if he can improve his powder, and he gets to use less than 10% for the shell that he lifted with it, now he uses Poplar charcoal and still gets the same results. I do have Willow charcoal, but I get faster powder with my homemade charcoal that I used in my BP for all of my shells from Independence Day.

 

Thanks fellow Pyros!

Dylan

LambentPyrotechnics.

Edited July 27, 2013 by LambentPyrotechnics

[LTUPyro]

Hi,

Welcom to forum. My bp is very simillar speed as yours. I use 10% of shell weight and it sends shells highly in the sky, sometimes even overlifting them. IMO problem is not with your bp, it's construction of shell. I usually put my liftcharge in tissue paper and tape it to the bottom of the shell. It gives little bit extra confiment. Maybe you left to much extra space in mortar?

[pyroman2498]

Hey Lambert, Glad you finally made it to the forums !

You have some nice powder, and i'm 99% sure that you Bp is not the problem here, I use Eastern Red Cedar ( Makes some HOT! Bp ) And i i use 10% and it usaly gets it to a nice hight.

I would suggest the same thing LTU suggested, check how it fits in the mortar, if its to loose then paste it some more, leave just enough room for a leader to be glued on

Also check your plugs on your mortar , mine shrink and warp after a while and cause my shells to just plump out and fall to the side of the mortar.

 

If there is anything else i can think of i'll let you know.

anyways ,

 

Welcome To The Forums,Don't be worried to jump on chat, you usaly can get us regulars to chat and tell stories around the makeshift camp fire, I'm Almost on there everyday and usaly all day ( sometimes I'm AFK do to my computer not telling me when someone joins chat, )

And also, Almost everyone on the Forums Are like family, we have people we dislike and we get into are arguments but at the end of the day we crack open a beer and laugh about it. (Or in my case a soda )

 

Hope you enjoy your stay

 

~Steven

[LambentPyro]

Thanks for the reply guys! My shell fits nice and snugly tight in the mortar. I'll try to find different methods of confinement.

 

I have tried putting it into a tissue paper and taping it on there, (most of my lift was used that method) but I still get the problem. All methods, I even tried doing that and putting a thick tube around it for extra confinement, but do I have to confine in that much? People are always just strapping it on there.

 

Ill fire some baseballs out of the mortar using different charcoals, poplar, black willow, willow, and my regular stuff. Using different confining methods and different amounts. I'll post my results!

Edited July 27, 2013 by LambentPyrotechnics

[pyroman2498]

I don't use confinement on my shells, after i past my shells i wrap some craft around it attach my leader for a pass fire and add the lift it to just a small plastic bag ( I dont like to use plastic in shells though, so sometimes i use tissue paper ) and stick the black into the bag and close up the excess paper around the bottom.

[PyroCube]

Normally the liftcharce isn`t confined in any way. If your shell fits tightly in the mortar, the problem really seems to be your blackpowder.

Maybe your BP get wet due to the high air humidity. You should try to dry the BP completely and seal it airtight until

you shoot the shell.

 

Greets

[pyroman2498]

i've never had a problem with My BP being hygroscopic, but that seems to be the only conclusion i can come up with also if it fits tight in the mortar and your BP is fast, maybe a bit of moisture in the bottom of the mortar that got your Bp slightly damp ?

 

~Steven

[pyrojig]

No harm in getting more suggestions . Im of the same thought too. It is good to get the opinions of many. Im sure there are many factors that come into play here. I made some suggestions on the "other forum" , in hopes it may help.

[LambentPyro]

No harm in getting more suggestions . Im of the same thought too. It is good to get the opinions of many. Im sure there are many factors that come into play here. I made some suggestions on the "other forum" , in hopes it may help.

 

Hey there Pyrojig, yeah, not too many people visiting that forum anymore, I'm glad your on here too, and it still great you visit that forum frequently, very kind of you!! My mortar is an appropriate length, I bought it from mortarrack.com, 3" mortar is 18" length, and my 4" is 24" length.

 

i've never had a problem with My BP being hygroscopic, but that seems to be the only conclusion i can come up with also if it fits tight in the mortar and your BP is fast, maybe a bit of moisture in the bottom of the mortar that got your Bp slightly damp ?

 

~Steven

 

How would I avoid my BP becoming hygroscopic? I tried wrapping my last shell in Saran Wrap, but I had a feeling that wouldn't work.

 

Normally the liftcharce isn`t confined in any way. If your shell fits tightly in the mortar, the problem really seems to be your blackpowder.

Maybe your BP get wet due to the high air humidity. You should try to dry the BP completely and seal it airtight until

you shoot the shell.

 

Greets

 

I tried my best at drying it, my burst was dried just as long, and I get some VERY nice breaks, especially on my last couple shells! I only use about 2 grams of whistle mix booster for a 3" shell. My burst isn't as fast as my lift too! Ironic!

 

I don't use confinement on my shells, after i past my shells i wrap some craft around it attach my leader for a pass fire and add the lift it to just a small plastic bag ( I dont like to use plastic in shells though, so sometimes i use tissue paper ) and stick the black into the bag and close up the excess paper around the bottom.

 

What do you mean by wrapping craft? Yeah, you don't even tape it though?

 

What I don't understand is why people don't confine BP? It doesn't blast good when it is just surrounded by tissue paper, does it?

[schroedinger]

from what i`ve read from your stuff and movie. I also don't think that your bp is the problem, but in you first poste you write:

 

 

Then I granulate with no dextrin (slow my powder down). In the video above was BP granilated with a kitchen mesh collander, about 20 mesh or so, but on a lot of my lift charge from the holiday (not all), I had screened it through a 4-Mesh screen and got some nice large explosive chunks.[/Quote]4-mesh is quite big. But the stuff from your kitchen collander should be right size.Also you say you don`t use any binder, why not. If you use water on KNO3 will act as a binder by forming crystals, which are very weak if you use alcohol only sulfur and some other effects will give you a grain. Still weak.I would assume that some of you`re shells lift proper cause most grain will stay in shape and in other you`re grain is gone back to meal which isn`t fast enough.Probably best would be if you try granulating with 2% dextrin, gum arabic shellac or a little bit more red gum. These small amounts won`t affect your lift but maybe you will be able to go and even cut down more on your lift, as the grain will stay put

Edited July 28, 2013 by schroedinger

[LTUPyro]

I second what schroedinger said, try granulating it with 1-2% binder, it won't slow down your bp very much and will give stronger granules. If you granulate it without binder granules will be very weak and with any compression can make BP fall into dust again.

[LambentPyro]

from what i`ve read from your stuff and movie. I also don't think that your bp is the problem, but in you first poste you write:

 

 

4-mesh is quite big. But the stuff from your kitchen collander should be right size.Also you say you don`t use any binder, why not. If you use water on KNO3 will act as a binder by forming crystals, which are very weak if you use alcohol only sulfur and some other effects will give you a grain. Still weak.I would assume that some of you`re shells lift proper cause most grain will stay in shape and in other you`re grain is gone back to meal which isn`t fast enough.Probably best would be if you try granulating with 2% dextrin, gum arabic shellac or a little bit more red gum. These small amounts won`t affect your lift but maybe you will be able to go and even cut down more on your lift, as the grain will stay put

 

So you're saying that not adding a binder is my issue? Is it possible to dissolve the dextrin in my isopropanol and then still have hard granules? I think that is better rather than adding it into my comp.

 

I second what schroedinger said, try granulating it with 1-2% binder, it won't slow down your bp very much and will give stronger granules. If you granulate it without binder granules will be very weak and with any compression can make BP fall into dust again.

 

It doesn't necessarily turn into meal again, just like 40 mesh dust granules actually.

[pyrojig]

These guys made a good point . The grains may be breaking down more than you think. But if your handling it easy, you should not have a prob. Also the use of alcohol in making powder is only best utilized with redgum bound bp. The use of water is a very needed item for making your dextrin activate , as well as making the mixture intimate and faster.

[LTUPyro]

LambentPyrotechnics, well yeah, it probably doesn't make it into fine meal, but 40 mesh is way to fine to lift a shell.

[LambentPyro]

LambentPyrotechnics, well yeah, it probably doesn't make it into fine meal, but 40 mesh is way to fine to lift a shell.

 

Yea, but even my shells with explosive chunks, they did not have any dextrin, and they were as hard as a rock, some of them were a little less than 4 mesh, maybe like 6 mesh or 10 mesh.

 

I have a keg of graulated BP (20 mesh or so) made with Black Willow and Ordinary Willow, I'll fire some baseballs out and see how far they go up with 10%.

 

I'll record my results, and post them on this thread, oh yeah, this powder was milled with dextrin too, 5%.

[LambentPyro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op8w-b6mUrw

 

Here is a direct comparison! Please take a look!!

[pyrojig]

Some charcoals are best suited for producing more gas volume (power). Some are fast , but not many share both qualities . The baseball test will help put to rest some of these questions . Also there was a great amount of info on Dan Creagans site about testing several charcoals. Pyrotechnica's # 17 article did a very nice write-up on this subject as well. Bp is Rated on spollette burn time, muzzle velocity, and flight time.

[LambentPyro]

Some charcoals are best suited for producing more gas volume (power). Some are fast , but not many share both qualities . The baseball test will help put to rest some of these questions . Also there was a great amount of info on Dan Creagans site about testing several charcoals. Pyrotechnica's # 17 article did a very nice write-up on this subject as well. Bp is Rated on spollette burn time, muzzle velocity, and flight time.

 

What was the verdict?

 

Anyways, but my homemade charcoal BP had A LOT more smoke involved though...

[schroedinger]

You can`t use dextrin with Isopropanol, for that you will need Water. If you use Isopropanol, yust use red gum or shellac

[pyroman2498]

im my experience, i usaly use 70% IPA and 30% water with the binder being Homemade dextrin , my granules are quite hard but still a little brittle.

How would I avoid my BP becoming hygroscopic? I tried wrapping my last shell in Saran Wrap, but I had a feeling that wouldn't work.

 

What do you mean by wrapping craft? Yeah, you don't even tape it though?

 

What I don't understand is why people don't confine BP? It doesn't blast good when it is just surrounded by tissue paper, does it?

 

1. You can't avoid it becoming hygroscopic when it already is, But i get what you mean.

Try keeping your bp with a desiccant till ready to use, You can use silica gel packs, molecular sieves, or calcium chloride. Just make sure the desiccant doesn't mix with your BP, i would recommend the silica gel packs because you can just toss those into your bag or container of BP.

Also, i dont recommend using saran wrap because the clean up of melted plastic in the mortar, and cause its not green

 

2.i was talking about a can shell, but if you're making a ball shell you can also wrap that in craft paper, VikingPyrotechnics recent video shows him doing that , beside it keeping the lift charge a little more safe, it gives a cool look to the shell.

Personally i dont like to use tape, i like to use wheat paste to seal stuff , but that come with a risk of getting things wet so you can use gummed tape, i like to use that to because its strong and water activated and dries quickly. The other alternative is Hot Glue !, hot glue has so many uses .

 

3.if i can get a video up of my Bp confined in a little tissue paper i will post it, you can literally add some BP to a bottom of a mortar , bottom fuse the mortar and drop a shell on top, then just add a little wadding on top of the shell. And there are some shells that you confine it and make it nice and tight, and even paste the lift on to the bottom, i remember in chat mumbles talking about "Mill-less shells" where you dont mill the bp , but instead (If i remember correctly) you paste the lift to the shell so the gasses build up then brake through the confinement and lift the shell (correct me if i'm wrong)

There is a word used to call the type of lift but i dont remember it.

 

-Hope this helps some

 

~Steven

Edited July 29, 2013 by pyroman2498

[dynomike1]

Here's one i ran into with a can shell. First thing it's going to be under sized. I had one that only went about 15', then i remembered that the powder bag wasn't center of the shell. So i lost some lift.On my ball shells i hot glue 3-5oz Dixie cups, there pretty cheap.

[Mumbles]

The mill-less thing that some of us have been talking about in the chat really is only going to work for large shells. I wouldn't even consider it for something less than 3-4lbs, and that is likely cutting it as-is. I'd probably reserve it for 5lbs+.

 

Hygroscopic BP comes from hygroscopic materials. This usually means slightly impure KNO3 or something in the charcoal. I've never had a problem personally even using slightly impure KNO3. The grains still stayed hard, and still worked pretty well.

 

I recently posted about the type of problem you've been having LambentPyrotechnics in another thread (sorry, I don't recall which one). I've often experienced issues with smaller shells. BP, like many other compositions, burns faster under pressure. It seems there is sort of a critical pressure that the lift needs to get to in order to really do it's job. I've had shells anemically pop out of mortars and go maybe 20 feet in the air, where a similar shell with maybe a couple grams more lift goes several hundred feet in the air. 3" ball shells always seem to give me the most problems. They always seem to come out undersized for me.

 

Probably the simplest way to solve the problem is just to use more BP to lift shells. BP is cheap and having to use 18g instead of 12g is not the end of the world. There are a lot of people who put too much emphasis on BP speed. Who cares if you need to use 15% instead of 10% to lift a shell? You need to use what it takes to get to a safe height. Alternatively, I've found that confining the lift somewhat can more efficiently use what lift you have. I put it into the corner of a plastic bag with the quickmatch, and typically twist it into tight bun. I then tie off the plastic bag and trim away the excess. I attach my lift with an X of tape, and then cover everything with aluminum tape. The aluminum tape provides some confinement to the lift, but more importantly to me, protects the lift from stray sparks. I generally only fire stuff at club shoots, where mortars are repeatedly reloaded. I like having an extra layer of protection, just in case someone left burning debris in a mortar.

 

I really can't help you dynomike. I've honestly never had an undersized cylinder shell, nor an off center lift charge. Half the time I need to use some tricks just to get them into the mortar in the first place. You might want to use a bigger form for rolling the casing.

[LambentPyro]

The mill-less thing that some of us have been talking about in the chat really is only going to work for large shells. I wouldn't even consider it for something less than 3-4lbs, and that is likely cutting it as-is. I'd probably reserve it for 5lbs+.

 

Hygroscopic BP comes from hygroscopic materials. This usually means slightly impure KNO3 or something in the charcoal. I've never had a problem personally even using slightly impure KNO3. The grains still stayed hard, and still worked pretty well.

 

I recently posted about the type of problem you've been having LambentPyrotechnics in another thread (sorry, I don't recall which one). I've often experienced issues with smaller shells. BP, like many other compositions, burns faster under pressure. It seems there is sort of a critical pressure that the lift needs to get to in order to really do it's job. I've had shells anemically pop out of mortars and go maybe 20 feet in the air, where a similar shell with maybe a couple grams more lift goes several hundred feet in the air. 3" ball shells always seem to give me the most problems. They always seem to come out undersized for me.

 

Probably the simplest way to solve the problem is just to use more BP to lift shells. BP is cheap and having to use 18g instead of 12g is not the end of the world. There are a lot of people who put too much emphasis on BP speed. Who cares if you need to use 15% instead of 10% to lift a shell? You need to use what it takes to get to a safe height. Alternatively, I've found that confining the lift somewhat can more efficiently use what lift you have. I put it into the corner of a plastic bag with the quickmatch, and typically twist it into tight bun. I then tie off the plastic bag and trim away the excess. I attach my lift with an X of tape, and then cover everything with aluminum tape. The aluminum tape provides some confinement to the lift, but more importantly to me, protects the lift from stray sparks. I generally only fire stuff at club shoots, where mortars are repeatedly reloaded. I like having an extra layer of protection, just in case someone left burning debris in a mortar.

 

I really can't help you dynomike. I've honestly never had an undersized cylinder shell, nor an off center lift charge. Half the time I need to use some tricks just to get them into the mortar in the first place. You might want to use a bigger form for rolling the casing.

 

Hi Mumbles, thanks for replying, you're right, it seems the smaller shells do need more lift, and especially 2.5" shells gave me issues too, I didn't upload them though, would be a waste of time to show such pitiful shells anyway, where no stars lit, or it only went 20' into the air.

 

Yea, you're completely right, it isn't the end of the world, but how come other people don't run into this problem? I am doing identical processes compared to the guy I sent my charcoal to and he uses 9% lift.

 

Can milling the powder too long make the powder that way? I mill it for a day.

 

Also, I really do make sure I compress my lift charge, I just believe it works better.

Edited July 29, 2013 by LambentPyrotechnics

[pyroman2498]

This may sound stupid, but is it possible to confine your lift too much, i'll look into it on my next shells and do different confinement tests.

 

I agree with mumbles, If you have to use an extra few grams of BP, then use the extra BP, Safety comes before being cheap.

In my experiences , with smaller shells ( My inserts and 1.5" shells ) I usaly use a little less than 10% and still get a nice height.

[LambentPyro]

This may sound stupid, but is it possible to confine your lift too much, i'll look into it on my next shells and do different confinement tests.

 

I agree with mumbles, If you have to use an extra few grams of BP, then use the extra BP, Safety comes before being cheap.

In my experiences , with smaller shells ( My inserts and 1.5" shells ) I usaly use a little less than 10% and still get a nice height.

 

You're right, but then I might as well go back to hardwood charcoal. I used 10% on my 1.5" shells, and they to a perfect height.