So so results with 3" aerial salutes, ideas?

[nesc39]

So a 3" aerial shell was made for the first time and the results were sub standard. The shell lifted great and although time fuse was a little long it did is job and lit the shell. The problem was the burst, it was weak and the report was garbage. Chrysanthemum 6 stars were used and most didn't light. The actual burst charge was willow coated rice hulls 4:1. Both halves had stars inserted and the remaining space was filled with hulls. The shell was plastic and sealed with xylene. The shell was not wrapped with any tape it was left plain. I know that it should have been wrapped with reinforced tape . In your opinion what was the biggest contributing factor to failure. No tape or using rice hulls. Are rice hulls to weak for 3" aerials? Next time H3 burst may be tried, how much more dangerous is H3 than BP. The other idea was a few grams of 70/30 flash. Should it be in a separate baggie, Not thrilled with the idea of it loosely floating around in a shell.

 

[mikeee]

Shell containment needs several layers on the outer side of the plastic shell.

Several grams of flash added in the center would help.

You could always coat some rice hulls with flash powder, use these in the center.

[PyroCube]

It absolutely depends on the quality of your bp. If it`s fast ( it seems that it`s not in your case ) you can get a perfect break only with rice hulls.

If your powder is a bit weaker, not bad quality yet, a bit 70/30 flash can help to get a better break. Do not use too much, maybe start with 1 gram ,

that can make a great difference. If the break is still too weak you can add more and more flash until your satisfied. But remember

to make a good prime on your stars so you can ensure a proper ignition. Good priming is one of the most important things in aerial shells,

at least for beginners.

 

Greets

Edited July 26, 2013 by PyroCube

[nesc39]

Several grams of flash added in the center would help.

Loose? kinda scares me that it might ignite. Although they get shipped halfway around the world like that and don't ignite so I'm probably over worrying.

 

You could always coat some rice hulls with flash powder, use these in the center.

 

Flash coated hulls? What would you bind them with?

[mikeee]

nesc39,

 

I just dust/coat rice hulls, cotton seed, and rice crispys with dry flash powder, flash powder sticks to everything.

I just put them in a baggie and toss them in the powder.

The loose dry flash powder will ignite faster and harder.

Most common practice is to add the flash powder directly into the center of your burst charge. (should not be a problem)

You could place the flash powder inside a layer of light tissue paper if you want it kept in place.

[psyco_1322]

A salute refers to a shell that just contains flash, for an audible effect. A star shell is what you have seemed to built. Star shells are not salutes.

 

That's where granulated whistle is good for boosting, it doesn't settle through the hulls like dusty flash. The loose flash is not really an issue, it fills into voids in the hulls and does not really accumulate in one area. I would say to try 3g of flash in your plastic shell. I know people have made excellent shells by pasting the plastic hemis with a good layer of paper. Gummed kraft paper tape works good for this.

 

Another thing, just avoid H3 or any other chlorate containing formulas. They are particularly sensitive and definitely not for anyone that isn't on a professional level. Plus anything chlorate based can be achieved with perchlorate, and be much safer.

Edited July 27, 2013 by psyco_1322

[kilnj69]

Plus anything chlorate based can be achieved with perchlorate, and be much safer.

 

So your saying I wasted my time making chlorate for smoke devices (that needs a cooler flame as to not incinerate the dye) when I could of used perchlorate instead. Sorry psyco_1322, Stating "ANY" chlorate based mixtures can use perchlorate to achieve the same result is just wrong. Just my 2 cents.

Edited July 27, 2013 by kilnj69

[FlaMtnBkr]

And you are nit picking. For 97% of things perchlorate can be used instead of chlorate. And I bet that with enough tweaking and the addition of other chemicals, perchlorate could be used in some colored smokes. The addition of copper oxychloride causes perchlorate to give up its oxygen easier, and the addition of sulfur lowers the ignition temp. I'm sure there are other chemicals that can help even more. But using chlorate is just easier.

[ollie1016]

Chlorate is cheaper than perc as well ...

[pyroman2498]

So your saying I wasted my time making chlorate for smoke devices (that needs a cooler flame as to not incinerate the dye) when I could of used perchlorate instead. Sorry psyco_1322, Stating "ANY" chlorate based mixtures can use perchlorate to achieve the same result is just wrong. Just my 2 cents.

Jeez, i'll say someone is picky about how things are put.

Loose? kinda scares me that it might ignite. Although they get shipped halfway around the world like that and don't ignite so I'm probably over worrying.

 

No need to worry much about loose flash in a shells,it usaly stick to everything in the shell anyways, just while using flash use Antistatic spray and throwing some water on the shop floor would be ideal. If you don't feel safe using flash, then don't use it, accidents happen when you're not ready, You could also use Whistle for a booster. Whistle works for my shells when i need a boost.

Also, the flash powder isn't just going to spontaneously go off in the shell if there aren't any incompatibilities in there. ( Please someone correct me if i'm wrong on that. )

Edited July 27, 2013 by pyroman2498

[pyroman2498]

And you are nit picking. For 97% of things perchlorate can be used instead of chlorate. And I bet that with enough tweaking and the addition of other chemicals, perchlorate could be used in some colored smokes. The addition of copper oxychloride causes perchlorate to give up its oxygen easier, and the addition of sulfur lowers the ignition temp. I'm sure there are other chemicals that can help even more. But using chlorate is just easier.

May i just add,

Your a mad man if you use sulfur with perc ! If i remember right, thats on the Death mix list, and i definitely know chlorate and sulfur is a horrible thing to.

[Carbon796]

Potassium perchlorate and sulfur is NOT a death mix. Quite a few modern formulas spec the use of both together, to include color comps. It will increase the sensitivity somewhat, but most notably with flash mixes.

[nesc39]

A salute refers to a shell that just contains flash, for an audible effect. A star shell is what you have seemed to built. Star shells are not salutes.

Another thing, just avoid H3 or any other chlorate containing formulas. They are particularly sensitive and definitely not for anyone that isn't on a professional level. Plus anything chlorate based can be achieved with perchlorate, and be much safer.

 

Ya i totally just newbed that whole post. I started the post thinking about 3" salutes and what was inside of them as far as amounts of flash. Then i ended up writing about the star shell.......My next mistake is i just wrote H3 when i meant KP. I NEVER intend to use chlorate for anything.

 

 

No need to worry much about loose flash in a shells,it usaly stick to everything in the shell anyways, just while using flash use Antistatic spray and throwing some water on the shop floor would be ideal. If you don't feel safe using flash, then don't use it, accidents happen when you're not ready, You could also use Whistle for a booster. Whistle works for my shells when i need a boost.

Also, the flash powder isn't just going to spontaneously go off in the shell if there aren't any incompatibilities in there. ( Please someone correct me if i'm wrong on that. )

 

I have a decent amouint of experiance with flash but it always makes me nervous and i have never used it with anything except itself. Sulfur increases flash sensitivity alot so i thought the fact that the sulfur from the BP might cause a reaction? You always read so much about how dangerous flash is, but there is no way to know if your on the edge or not in terms of igniting on accident because you dont get a second chance if it does. Its not like wheelying a bicycle and flipping over, you dont just just land on your ass and jump up and try again. I try to always pick the weakest most stable pussiest mix that there is. The only reason i even know anything about flash is because when i was younger and dumber i used a decent amount of it. So the fact that i am familiar with it is the only reason i would use again. I read alot about the danger of whistle mix but i have been nervous to make some since i never have. I have read that it is just as dangerous? Im not looking to be a pro, im not doing competitions, i dont need perfect symmetry, I just want a nice basic aerial shell with a good deep report and decent stars.

[PyroCube]

Ever thought about slow flash?

You could try

60 KNO3

30 Dark Al

10 Sulfur

 

It works fairly well as a booster in aerial shells. It`s not as strong as perc flash but a lot

more stable.

 

Greets

[nesc39]

heard of it but never seen or used it. Its more stable, are you positive? I have no idea. I do think i read something about aluminum and nitrate not being a good mix. Or maybe that involved water too? IDK.

[dynomike1]

I just went through the same thing,( see rolled stars blowing blind) You probably not going to get anywhere till you put up a video because everyone is guessing on your problem . I would say if you got C-6 stars not lighten you may have a seal problem, at least that was my problem with green stars.

[PyroCube]

If you are concerned about the nitrate and aluminium you can add 2% boric acid to the mixture, this will prevent any reaction.

It`s definitely more stable than any flash containing chlorate/perchlorate. You can make it even more stable by

using some coarser Al, this will make it hard to ignite with a lighter, but it will still give you a nice boost effect togehter

with the main break charge.

 

Greets

[pyroman2498]

Sorry that i got that wrong ,The way i was taught is not to mix anything unless you're sure of what it will do and how sensitive it is.

I also was taught back when i first started never to mix sulfur with any chlorate/perchlorate mix do to the increase of sensitivity.

again sorry that i got that wrong, Thank you for correcting me

 

~Steven

[FlaMtnBkr]

No need to be sorry. It is better to be safe and question something you aren't sure about. But I believe all that sulfur does with perchlorate is lower the ignition temperature. I don't think it actually makes it more sensitive to impact and friction like it does with chlorate. Might be wrong but I have tested perchlorate flash with sulfur on a steel plate with a hammer and not had a reaction. Can't say the same with chlorate which will make a small pop and the smell of matches. And chlorate can even be used with sulfur although I don't recommend doing so until you have years of experience. The reason it has such a bad reputation is because sulfur used to contain quite a bit of acid which did make it closer to a "death mix" though it was still used a lot. In fact thousands of people use chlorate and sulfur everyday and carry it around in their pocket! It is what 'safety' matches contain and you never hear of people burning their pants off with a pack of matches.

 

I'm not trying to encourage anyone to use chlorate, especially with sulfur. Just saying it can be used safely if the right precautions are taken.

[Mumbles]

I'd start with the confinement issue first. That will need to be corrected regardless, and will probably be a big step in the right direction toward getting everything to light and be more or less properly burst. You'll have plenty of time to dial in amounts of booster and stuff once that's settled.

 

KP really does work best on slightly larger shells, about 4"-6". In the open, KP burns relatively slow actually. Under pressure inside a shell, the burn rate ramps quite a bit and works properly. Smaller shells sometimes can't achieve a high enough pressure to get the most out of the mixture. Typically H3 is actually used, but if you want to stay away from chlorates, there are other options. I personally use what amounts to essentially watered down whistle mix to burst the majority of my shells. You can actually modify the ratios to use in basically any shell you want. As written, it works well up to 6".

 

Potassium Perchlorate - 70

Potassium Benzoate - 15

Charcoal - 11

Dextrin - 4

 

 

A lot of the incompatibility and safety advice really isn't NEVER do X. It's more don't do this YET. Chlorate and sulfur is relatively sensitive, particularly to impact. Perchlorate and sulfur really isn't all that much less sensitive on it's own. The sensitivities are all tested with binary mixtures. Compositions do contain other materials which will temper the sensitivity. I try to avoid recommending chlorates to relatively inexperienced people. It can be used safely. To me, perchlorate is just more forgiving and a better chemical to develop safe handling and processing techniques. The same is the basis of many advising against using flash powder. It's better to steer clear of it until you can do it safely and confidently in my opinion. It also can attract the wrong kind of attention, which is the other reason it's frowned upon sometimes.

 

I'm sure you'll figure out the burst problem soon, and will be making great shells in no time.

[nesc39]

Mumbles what is the safest procedure for making whistle. I have read formulas containing sodium benzoate and others containing sodium salicylate. Some with mineral oil and others with vaseline. Could you also touch on the differences between whistle and flash? I am familiar with flash but know nothing of whistle except it is regarded equally dangerous. Is that true? I ask because I always read about whistle as a booster much more than flash. I am repetitive on this subject but I am trying to be as "safe" a possible. So which formula is the safest of the two? I worry about the booster igniting from the friction of the stars in the shell

[mikeee]

http://www.firesmithtools.com/Tutorials/whistlefuel.pdf

 

The above link is a tutorial on how to safely make whistle fuel mix. (Baggie Method)

Cut back a little on the vaseline or mineral oil for a hotter fuel mix.

I use Coleman Fuel or Acetone when making a batch of fuel for my whistle rockets.

Make sure you store the whistle fuel in a sealed container because it will absorb moisture from the air.

[Mumbles]

Making whistle as a booster is a little different than making it for rockets. For a booster, I generally don't add any phlegmatizer (petroleum jelly or oil). Instead, I usually granulate it with red gum (2-3 parts) and alcohol, or with NC lacquer. I personally do it a little differently than Ben shows in his tutorial, but it's a well written way to do things. There isn't any reason that you can't follow his steps, and just substitute in an alternative binder where he would add coleman's fuel with the vaseline or oil.

 

It's sort of hard to compare whistle and flash powder. Flash has a bigger stigma, but both are relatively sensitive and powerful. Comparing powdered, full strength versions of each, it's actually hard to gauge which might be more sensitive, but flash is probably more powerful. None of these things are truly safe, but when treated with respect and care, can be used safely.

 

The booster can be separated from the burst if you're worried about it intermingling between stars. Typically, the booster will stick to the burst and get nowhere near the stars however. Also, the burst can be separated from the stars with tissue paper. I do this in all of my shells. I prefer to keep the stars and burst separate so as to not disturb the symmetry of the break, but it accomplishes keeping the booster and stars separate too. Well packed shells don't really allow for much movement inside the shell anyway.

[psyco_1322]

So your saying I wasted my time making chlorate for smoke devices (that needs a cooler flame as to not incinerate the dye) when I could of used perchlorate instead. Sorry psyco_1322, Stating "ANY" chlorate based mixtures can use perchlorate to achieve the same result is just wrong. Just my 2 cents.

 

I wasn't stating that perchlorate is a direct replacement for chlorate. My statement should have read "nearly any effect that is chlorate based, can be achieved with perchlorate." Meaning you need to find a suitable perchlorate based formula, not swap oxidizers. Obviously, some things do require chlorate, like colored smokers.

 

Nitrate based flash is not really more "stable" but it is safer in the sense that it does not burn up instantly. If you had a tub ignite in front of you, you might get burned, but you are not going to get blasted by an explosion.

 

I have been told that red gum bound whistle is quite a bit more sensitive than whistle granulated with a phlegmatizer. Whistle that does have a phlegmatizer added for use in making rockets is still ridiculously fast and powerful. There are things to be said about Ben's method to making whistle, but that's for another thread.

Edited July 30, 2013 by psyco_1322

[laserkoi]

The shell lifted great and although time fuse was a little long ?

it did is job and lit the shell. The shell was not wrapped with any tape it was left plain. I know that it should have been wrapped with reinforced tape .

 

the obove says to me .your shell was a loose fit in your tube . thus a lot of lift gas escaped up the sides, resulting in loss of hight .

stars blowing blind ( not lighting ) use a 2 step prime method ( see http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/red-rubber-stars.asp

Mixing the Star Primes )

 

i use the obove 2 step prime for all my stars , it works for me every time

 

best of luck . rember were here to help just ask #