ollie1016 Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 I have just got some new pyro chemicals and the oxidisers are all granular/ sugar like. I have potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate, and potassium chlorate.I have ordered a coffee grinder to mill the chemicals down to a usable mesh. I've heard of (per)chlorate / nitrate incombatibilities, can anyone expand on this? And what order should I mill the chemicals? Or get separate mills? Thank you
pyroman2498 Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Don't Grind a mix of chemicals together, Have separate grinding container things for every chemical and make sure to wash you grinder very clean. In my honest opinion i wouldn't use a grinder , i would use a ball mill to mill my chemicals, Don't grind chemical mixes, like star mixes, or BP or anything like that. only the strait chemicals , and best would be done outside with a long extension cord away from you. An i wouldn't use the same container for grinding perc, that you used for say ,Charcoal. if those chemicals mix then you have a problem on your hand. There was a youtuber i know who was milling Bp in A coffee grinder and it went off in his face. Well stay safe and don't hesitate to ask anymore questions, The only stupid question is the one you don't ask .
NightHawkInLight Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Do not mill potassium chlorate. Actually, don't even use it. Stick it on a shelf and leave it there until you've done everything that's possible to do with nitrate and perchlorate, which will take a very long time. There's no good reason to use chlorate outside of very specific effects that can be closely replicated with perchlorate anyway. Get separate mills for nitrate and perchlorate, and only ever mill fuels in the mill that is only used with nitrate. Do this outside away from other pyro compositions. There have been plenty of ignitions of fuels and electrical fires in coffee mills and other electronic tools even without an oxidizer present. Some of them have ended up being much worse accidents than they should have been simply because they were being used nearby piles of compositions that had no purpose being nearby.
ollie1016 Posted July 6, 2013 Author Posted July 6, 2013 Don't Grind a mix of chemicals together, Have separate grinding container things for every chemical and make sure to wash you grinder very clean. In my honest opinion i wouldn't use a grinder , i would use a ball mill to mill my chemicals, Don't grind chemical mixes, like star mixes, or BP or anything like that. only the strait chemicals , and best would be done outside with a long extension cord away from you. An i wouldn't use the same container for grinding perc, that you used for say ,Charcoal. if those chemicals mix then you have a problem on your hand. There was a youtuber i know who was milling Bp in A coffee grinder and it went off in his face. Well stay safe and don't hesitate to ask anymore questions, The only stupid question is the one you don't ask . Don't worry I would never mill a composition mix in and coffee grinder! I that I will only use the grinder for the perc? And nothing else. As Nighthawk said leave the chlorate, that's a good idea for me. As I'm probably not fully experienced with chlorates. I think I'll will just buy some alumina media for the kno3/ perc too. I don't like using lead to mill down each chem, as they come out all grey! Any more information would be great!
pyroman2498 Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 why do you need media for a coffee grinder?, the blade on it does the grinding, i'm sorta confused, can you clarify I agree, don't use chlorate, there is no need, I like perc better than chlorate. BTW, don't be like me, use gloves when you work with chemicals like perc, there not super toxic but aren't healthy, better to be safe than sorry. i use gloves now but i use to not use gloves with the chemicals. Anyways im off topic, Stay safe and feel free to PM me if you need to ~Steven
Seymour Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 (edited) I'd personally be happy to mill all three in the same coffee grinder. What the hell, I'd grind them all together! They are not incompatible directly with each other. But then I'd hesitate to put any of them near Sulfur or Al or MgAl or Mg or Ammonium perchlorate, in increasing order of paranoia. Just because of the chlorate with the sulfur, and chlorate with the AP, and because of the nitrate-metal reaction creating Ammonia, thus nitrate-metals can be like AP to ClO3- (I think.... ) I would then NEVER put the KNO3 in a BP mix that is milled later in a ball mill, because I don't want chlorate or perchlorate in there, ever. I agree that chlorate is best left alone, and next best is to get it a coffee grinder just for it. For some applications I would use the chlorate mill to mill K perchlorate, because I don't mind having a little KP contamination in my chlorate in any application I can think of, but the opposite is true or not very much depending on the specifics of the application. You only need KClO3 for coloured smoke. I'm almost ready to sacrifice this effect to be done with KClO3. Almost. Edited July 6, 2013 by Seymour
killforfood Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Hi Ollie, Much like you, in my excitement to jump into the hobby “full speed ahead” I bought a bunch of chemicals including a couple pounds of Chlorate. That’s been a few years ago and I have never opened it. I would suggest you keep it sealed and put it somewhere safe until you fully understand its incompatibilities. Eventually I will make something fun like Crackballs or 22cal. Reactive targets. But for now it stays away from all of my chems, screens and tooling. Play safe.KFF
ollie1016 Posted July 6, 2013 Author Posted July 6, 2013 I think that I'll definately leave the chlorate alone! I've put it at the back of my oxidisers cabinet. I'm not too bothered about the kno3. I am sort of scared of perc! I know kno3 quite well, but perc I'm not 100% sure about it. I've read quite a few online pages and books. I'm just nervous when I open the bottle! So I've got 4.5lbs of perc, can I use that in a coffee grinder then? ( just perc, no fuels )
ollie1016 Posted July 6, 2013 Author Posted July 6, 2013 I'd personally be happy to mill all three in the same coffee grinder. What the hell, I'd grind them all together! They are not incompatible directly with each other. But then I'd hesitate to put any of them near Sulfur or Al or MgAl or Mg or Ammonium perchlorate, in increasing order of paranoia. Just because of the chlorate with the sulfur, and chlorate with the AP, and because of the nitrate-metal reaction creating Ammonia, thus nitrate-metals can be like AP to ClO3- (I think.... ) I would then NEVER put the KNO3 in a BP mix that is milled later in a ball mill, because I don't want chlorate or perchlorate in there, ever. I agree that chlorate is best left alone, and next best is to get it a coffee grinder just for it. For some applications I would use the chlorate mill to mill K perchlorate, because I don't mind having a little KP contamination in my chlorate in any application I can think of, but the opposite is true or not very much depending on the specifics of the application. You only need KClO3 for coloured smoke. I'm almost ready to sacrifice this effect to be done with KClO3. Almost. I thought there was a nitrate / perc, chlorate incompatibility? I would only now really use it for perc.
Seymour Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 There is the Nitrate/Ammonium perchlorate incompatibility. This is simply because Ammonium nitrate is created, which is no danger in its self, but is deliquescent to the point that you have to avoid this mix at the cost of loosing your batch to moisture. Swap the nitrate with chlorate though and you are risking your life. NO chlorate and Ammonium (except in the odd specific exception of course ) There is no KNO3 (or Ba, Sr, Na) incompatibility with KClO4. As I previously noted it's not safe to mill BP with KP contamination, but other than that I'd happily blend KN and KP all day to my hearts content. It's a common way to tune hard bursts, using a blend of BP and KP bursts, or nitrate and perchlorate flash. If both the KClO3 and KNO3 are relatively pure they are safe to mix too, though as I stated in my last post, you now need to really take the nitrate-aluminium reaction to be an incompatibility rather than just an annoyance. If the KNO3 is truly horrific quality (not likely these days without some terrible storage methods) then you might have impurities that could be a concern (ammonia!) If you keep the coffee grinder for perc only as you say, and mill KNO3 and BP in your ball mill, that should be fine.
killforfood Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Mixing Sulfur and chlorates are the biggest danger.
Seymour Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Some reputable (and brave) people happily mix Sulfur and chlorates. I wouldn't, but I consider the Ammonium - chlorate incompatibility without a doubt more serious.
killforfood Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Thanks for the correction Seymour. We are fortunate that knowlegde is so freely handed out here. No doubt this forum has saved a few lives. On the down side, some spectactular Darwins went unclaimed
ollie1016 Posted July 7, 2013 Author Posted July 7, 2013 Mixing Sulfur and chlorates are the biggest danger. Yeah I tested that! I go half a pinch of kclo3 and some sulphur and hit it with a hammer! I was supposed to say the least! Thank you all to your contributions to this post and answering my burning question! Ollie
psyco_1322 Posted July 7, 2013 Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) Just spend an extra $30 and get another grinder, that way you can keep your Potassium Nitrate and Perchlorate separate. As far as comps go, they are fine being mixed together, but it would be good practice to not introduced perchlorate into your bp mill. You coffee grinder should be washed out really well if you need to grind something else in it, but have dedicated ones will save you from having to do this. Also it sucks when you have to wait for the grinder to dry out completely before you use it again. The Potassium Perchlorate is nothing to worry about, you can get it on you, it's not going to hurt you. I would advise not eating it though. And also, just hide the Chlorate, stay away from it, or better yet, sell it. Just like Nighthawk said, you don't need it, and you can do nearly everything with perchlorate or nitrates. Edited July 7, 2013 by psyco_1322
brimstoned Posted July 7, 2013 Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) I would go with a ball mill every time...and separate jars for fuels, oxidizers and compositions.As for the chlorate, the only safe use I've found is with certain colored smoke compositions; BTW: chlorates are much more toxic than perchlorates. Edited July 7, 2013 by brimstoned
Tanker6982 Posted July 1, 2022 Posted July 1, 2022 Don't Grind a mix of chemicals together, Have separate grinding container things for every chemical and make sure to wash you grinder very clean. In my honest opinion i wouldn't use a grinder , i would use a ball mill to mill my chemicals, Don't grind chemical mixes, like star mixes, or BP or anything like that. only the strait chemicals , and best would be done outside with a long extension cord away from you. An i wouldn't use the same container for grinding perc, that you used for say ,Charcoal. if those chemicals mix then you have a problem on your hand. There was a youtuber i know who was milling Bp in A coffee grinder and it went off in his face. Well stay safe and don't hesitate to ask anymore questions, The only stupid question is the one you don't ask .
mx5kevin Posted July 3, 2022 Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) A poppy seed grinder and a quality lab mortar and pestle are much more better. Electric coffee grinders making poor work, the powders are not enough fine, and they are damage too fast. They are not suitable for demanding quality work. If the ingredients first grinded in a poppy seed grinder several times. In a mortar without ball mill well get the same quality powders if we combinate it with a poppy seed grinder. The big advantage is that none of them are electric, they don't break down, and they are cheap. Edited July 3, 2022 by mx5kevin
investinbest Posted June 19, 2023 Posted June 19, 2023 I personally would never recommend using a coffee grinder if you can buy yourself a rotary rock tumbler. Grinding chemicals in a coffee grinder could cause a chemical reaction.
Guest Posted August 24, 2023 Posted August 24, 2023 I personally would never recommend using a coffee grinder if you can buy yourself a rotary rock tumbler. Grinding chemicals in a coffee grinder could cause a chemical reaction.Besides that, it’ll probably make your coffee taste awful!
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