Flash Tests & Question

[xJaayy]

Hey guys! This is my very first post. I have been lurking around the forums for the past few months. This forum has helped me learn a lot about flash powder and the safety to take on it.

Now i respect Flash Powder very much. Its a dangerous powder.

 

For the past year I have only tried 1 type of Comp. I have always used KCLO4 (-325 Mesh)+ Dark AL 5413. It was first mixture in Flash I ever did and I loved it. It burns really fast and makes a "WOMP" sound if ignited unconfined around a gram or under. When confined in a nice sized tube with paper caps and only filled just a little over or only 3/4 the tube it makes a wonderful bang with a nice touch of soundwave with heat hitting you if your close enough. I use a ratio of 7:3 KCLO4 / AL .

 

Now I was wondering.. and I know i can just buy it and test it but why waste money while i can get help here. I was just wondering.. if I switch to KCLO3 with the same AL, would it make a better bang in loudness? I have really never bothered with KCLO3 since i know its more unstable, but now that i have dealt with this for about a year or more.. i feel safe. I'm always careful when mixing and respect the Flash.

Would KCLO3 have any different effect or none at all?

[Xtreme Pyro]

I would advise NOT using KCLO3 for flash, it is EXTREMELY sensitive and too dangerous to use in legitimate pyrotechnics. Before going any further, what are you making with this flash? From the second paragraph it seems like you are making M- style explosives.

[xJaayy]

I hardly use many grams of the powder for an explosion. I make a lot of 3" Aerial Shells. Most of them are Crackle effect only or add the powder to enhance a specific shell. Yes i have had in my hand an M- style explosive and have built one for a test of no more than 15g a good while back.

 

I also know that everyone who talks about Flash always gets questioned on what they are using their Flash. Well those are my reasons i just mentioned. But I was just wondering if using KCLO3 instead of KCLO4 makes "any" difference in Loudness or a Flash at all for learning/knowledge purposes. But yes I do like a bang in my shells.

[Xtreme Pyro]

Thanks for being honest about your intentions, I always use a small amount of flash myself to boost shells, with the occasional salute insert. I have never used KCLo3 in flash and don't plan too. Too me difference in loudness is not worth the risk you will be taking by making it with KClO3.

 

Stay Safe.

[Seymour]

I have witnessed/participated in the manufacture of chlorate flash on a small number of occasions. The effect ranges from comparable to 70/30 to comparable to HE, and I'm more scared of it than i was before I made it.

 

With 70/30 in my experience, the limiting factor for the loudness is always a conscious decision by me on what is appropriate and I limit it to that. We can all make much louder salutes than is appropriate in most situations without getting any more dangerous or fancy.

 

Also, just to throw out another risk not often talked about (and that's probably due to it being unlikely) but nevertheless very serious. Besides the Incompatibility between ClO3- and Sulfur, there is a chlorate related factor to the nitrate Aluminum reaction.

 

The Nitrate/Aluminium is generally considered less serious than other so called incompatibilities. This is probably because it can be easily reduced (boric acid for example), that even untreated the compositions rarely start to react, and when a reaction does occur the danger is ignition by thermal buildup, which is also very unlikely. Reactions when they happen generally only degrade the effect from the composition.

 

However, and this is where Chlorate comes in. Part of the Nitrate-Aluminium reaction involves the production of Ammonia. This also occurs with other reactive metals. Ammonia and Chlorate could combine to create Ammonium chlorate, which is a spontaneous ignition waiting to happen.

 

This is somewhat speculative, there are many steps to this reaction and it will not necessarily occur. There are many formulas (if scary) which combine all three and are then water bound. However I'd be surprised if these did not have disproportionately high accident rates.

 

I know Chlorate flash does not have KNO3 in it, but personally I would constantly be scared of the certain nitrate contamination on everything contaminating the KClO3/Al, and I guess that's the point of my ramblings.

 

Take it in to account that I've got a nearly irrational distrust and dislike of chlorate, not that it's a bad thing.

[flying fish]

If you're looking to boost shells, a hotter flash is the LAST thing you need. A medium flash - like KCLO4 with bright (rather than dark) Al is ideal for boosting shells. If your shells are somehow weak even with a flash booster, all you need to do is add more of it. You don't need to change the composition.

 

I've heard it said that chlorate will sharpen the report slightly. "Slightly" just doesn't seems like enough justification. There better be a night-and-day difference if I'm going to risk my life over it. Plus, who honestly wants to sharpen a report? I like a deep tone.

 

They do use chlorate flash in Malta but I believe that is mostly an economy measure (chlorate is cheaper) as they use huge amounts of flash for their timed reports and bottom shots. When working on a small scale it really makes no difference if you are paying a dollar more per pound for your oxidizer. Malta also has a rather poor safety record...

Edited June 12, 2013 by flying fish

[Mumbles]

There are more recent reports that several prominent Maltese clubs/factories are switching over to primarily perchlorate based compositions. I've been doing this hobby for the better part of my life at this point. Even though I feel confident and comfortable in using chlorate formulas, I still rarely if ever do so. Even then, never in metal containing compositions. The aspects where chlorate is superior would generally be negated by using metallic fueled compositions. Chlorate flash is not going to be that noticeably louder or more powerful to justify taking the added risk in my opinion. There are other ways to modify perchlorate compositions to get similar effects. Those formulas are going to be more sensitive, but you don't introduce the added incompatibilities of chlorate, and may still be safer to use in general.

 

I also feel that I have to urge you to explore the other aspects of pyrotechnics. There is a lot more to it than just reports. Sure they're a part, but play a relatively insignificant role. They also tend to attract the wrong kind of attention. There are many ways to use reports that would be seen as more artistic than destructive.

[sturmgewehr]

What storage times can be expected for pure chlorate/aluminium? The bad thing is that the chlorate can be slightly basic. Or chlorate/organic, like benzoate, acetate.

[pyroviper]

What storage times can be expected for pure chlorate/aluminium? The bad thing is that the chlorate can be slightly basic. Or chlorate/organic, like benzoate, acetate.

 

From what I understand you don't store these comps, they are made to use immediately. This is because of the chlorate incompatibilities.

[nesc39]

I always thought it was pretty ballsy how flash salutes were sealed with hot glue. I remember m80's as a kid filled on both ends. Seems pretty dangerous in hindsight. Does anyone know if its possible to light 70/30 flash with a glue gun? Does anyone know the ignition temp?

[xJaayy]

Thanks everyone, ..

 

And nesc39 are you just simply trying to make explosives.. ?

Anyways, no. A hot glue gun will not ignite the flash comp even if its direct contact. It may be hot and burn you, but it wont light up your powder.

I would suggest taking a very small amount of flash and put hot glue on it and test it for yourself. But always be careful even if it doesn't ignite the comp. Also, for safety. I would unplug the hot glue gun while "hot gluing" down anything near the Flash for safety reasons.

[Mumbles]

I second the suggestion of unplugging the hot glue gun before using it. There is a nice glue gun that sits in a dock and heats up, but has to be taken off the cradle to be used. This is kind of nice, as it makes sure you can't forget to unplug or turn off the electricity. The glue gun itself probably wont ignite flash, but it's the chance of a short out that is more of an issue. There are several documented accounts of glue guns spitting fire or melting down.

 

This will be blasphemy to some, but you could always just not use hot glue. I assure you that clay, paper, and paste can seal up basically any pyro device.

[Jakenbake]

If i'm not mistaken. The ignition temp of flash is around 1220F (melting point of aluminum). Lots of good info guys. Chlorate flash isn't worth it. Edited June 18, 2013 by Jakenbake

[Seymour]

Is that Degrees F? I think it's pretty much 660 in the rest of the world (sans Myanmar and Liberia - possible state candidates?) with our Centigrade.

[xJaayy]

I'm not saying this is 100% correct.. but ..

.......high temp guns =385° F

.......low temp ones = 250° F

 

So it should be pretty safe using just about any hot glue gun UNPLUGGED at least while using it.

[nesc39]

Years ago I started with flash thinking it was the coolest thing since that time I have changed my entire thought process to the point that I'm afraid to make/use it again now that I'm interested in real pyrotechnics. I poured the hottest glue that my glue gun could produce(left it plugged in and sitting for 20 min) onto a .5g pile with using a pool cleaner pole and some rope to do it. It didn't ignite. I was afraid to test bigger piles. I didn't know if larger amounts would change the situation. I never unplugged my gun back then and I didn't read about those accidents with sparks and it made me sick. The more I see and read about the sensitivity of different compositions I'm totally scared to make anything but bp and gold stars now. ( shells are my new obsession) I would love to make whistle devices but i have no balls. I'm gonna go to the pgi convention and hopefully calm myself down.

[Algenco]

I always thought it was pretty ballsy how flash salutes were sealed with hot glue. I remember m80's as a kid filled on both ends. Seems pretty dangerous in hindsight. Does anyone know if its possible to light 70/30 flash with a glue gun? Does anyone know the ignition temp?

the old M80 was sealed with a sodium silicate/calcium carbonate mixture

[FlaMtnBkr]

I thought it was sodium silicate and zinc oxide aka pyro adhesive.

[nesc39]

Ya the original m80s for military spec used waterglass( sodium silicate) to seal them but the ones we used to get about 20 years ago always used hot yellow glue

[FlaMtnBkr]

If you got them 20 years ago they were illegal. The person making them probably didn't care if hot glue 'bullets' were flying around if they were already risking a felony.

[mikeee]

The hot glue plugs are not something you want flying around in close proximity.

[nesc39]

Ya they used to sell them by the "gross" which was a paper shopping bag with 144 of them. We were ignorant and thought they were filled with bp until the Internet told us otherwise 15 years later.

[mikeee]

I know of a boomer that made some of these years ago that used drywall compound to seal the ends.

When the flash went off the drywall compound would turn to powder.

Not sure what is wrong with paper/chipboard plugs and glue to seal the ends.

I suppose when someone is building an ilegal item they don't care how it might hurt someone.

That should be high on the list for any Pyro item being built, making sure to limit the potential injury it could cause.

I would hate to take a hot glue plug to the eye, that would surely ruin your day and your future.

Edited June 22, 2013 by mikeee

[countryboy7978]

Mil spec M-80's were plugged with end disks and paper plugs. The original tubes were natural color not red. I've seen some of these. They didn't start sealing them with the carbonate-type mixes and hot glue until after they were made in factories. Apollo of the Ozarks used wax in later days in their Class C salutes and illegal M-80's. Hot glue was also used by Mid-South Pyrotechnics and Space Age/Atomic Pyrotechnics in the mid 80's.

 

The bootleg M-80's I used to "see" in the 90's were hot glue plugs with the fuse protruding through the top of the tube rather than punched through the side. Hot glue bottom pluged tubes were easy to mass produce, then just add flash, the fuse, saw dust and more hot melt. They were done with an industrial glue gun that heated the glue in a tank rather than using sticks. I have to say I am sad to see these types of salutes being harder and harder to find. The Chinese types are now dominating the market and they are not the same. oh well. Be careful... BTW Chlorate flash in a small report is louder. Ask the Mexicans and Brazilians...or me who's shot their stuff. That being said I won't play with it.

[nesc39]

Country thanks for the post. The top fused ones are exactly what I am talking about. I can affirm the glue tops def can be dangerous. My grandmother got hit in the tit with one that my uncle lit prob 100 yards away. Haha I didn't realize that just rhymed until now, whatever. She was pretty pissed. I wouldn't want to be the guy pouring the 350* glue into flash filled tubes.