CONFIRMED - Dagabu is the injured man

[NickT]

I was always taught to learn from my mistakes and get back on the horse and keep trying. In your case it can be hard to learn from your mistake when you can't pinpoint exactly what mistake you made. It seems to be a case of "it could happen to anyone." I have tested black powder by putting a tiny bit on concrete slab and hitting it with a hammer to test its sensitivity to shock. I could not get it to ignite. Even still sparks could have been produced by the steel tooling and concrete and could have ignited the powder, but didn't. Yet, one hears your story and wonders how it happened. Nothing in your setup seems more dangerous than other setups. This is definitely a case for safety equipment. Accidents can happen anywhere, anytime, and seemingly without reason. Murphy's law definitely applies here. Pyrotechnics is a dangerous hobby, and the chemicals and compositions we work with are inherently dangerous. I would say ultimately your continuing this hobby would depend on a risk reward analysis. Is the risk of injury for seemingly unknown reasons worth the reward of making some of the most beautiful things man can make?

[dagabu]

​That is the ultimate question all of us have to ask ourselves, no? Consider this though, heart disease accounts for 5 times the deaths than ALL accidental deaths together. It is in my best interests to keep on a healthy diet, exercise daily and keep a good attitude. The ultimate risk for me to be in another fire is less than being hit by lightening (statistically) so to eliminate ball milling would almost ensure my safety, again, statistically so.

[NickT]

I agree, my thoughts exactly. That's why I was trying to say. This is a very dangerous hobby but with all the safe techniques we must practice some danger is mitigated. It seems to me that freak accidents become the most common accident among well versed pyrotechnicians. I would say you and your situation fall into that category and agree with what you said above. The chances it happens once are slim but the chances it will happen again to the same person are slim.

[ddewees]

[Video]http://youtu.be/X14e9Fwxa8w

[Bobosan]

Hadn't seen that before. Guess he had a real bad day at the office. He's lucky to be able to get up and walk away TWICE!

[hindsight]

dagabu is correct in saying that more people die of heart disease than from accidents by a significant margin when all age groups are looked at together. It is when you look at the young that you see that accidents are the most common cause of death. Sadly, for the teenage years in my country suicide is perhaps the greatest robber of life. (I am old so I am more likely to die of a heart attack, which makes me immune from the grasp of accidents).

 

ddewees' video is frightening, but if conditions promote a lightning strike in one place, then it is more likely to happen there again. The lesson for life has been demonstrated by actuary studies. If an accident occurs to a certain person, or in a certain place, or by a certain thing, then it is more likely to occur when those factors are present in the future--unless the precipitating factor can be identified/isolated/eliminated. When mishaps occur and the cause can't be found, the Devil prevails and I think one should proceed prayerfully.

 

Happy and safe 4th of July to all my American friends!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited for better English usage,

Edited July 4, 2014 by hindsight

[BurritoBandito]

I can always trust that when words fail me Hindsight will step in and elegantly articulate my thoughts. We have no way of knowing the cause of Dag's accident. It could've been a random event, but it could also have been triggered by something that persists to this day. Dag, if you do return to pyro, I think it would be wise to carefully inspect your equipment and work area. Perhaps even get new chemicals. There's no telling if you somehow wound up with KClO3 in your KNO3 or some other unexpected contamination. It's better to be safe than sorry.

[MrB]

@ddewees: Something about that video strikes me as odd. Lightning that ignores both the tree's, and the cars, and goes for the poor guy. I wanna know whats in his diet, or, if that stiff rod in his pants is a lightning rod. Something isn't what it should be. And damn, i almost feel ashamed for laughing so hard when he got struck the second time.

B!

[hindsight]

MrB,

You are right. And I don't think it is the high iron, zinc or other essential metal in his diet. There is something nonrandom, and perhaps even something outside the usual laws of physics demonstrated here. When I was a boy in my village, we said not to stand to close to someone who spoke disrespectfully--they could be struck by lightning. Good thing I was not near you when you were laughing...although you generally are "well-grounded".

[Paravani]

Yes, I can't agree more, if I can help save even one person from this, it will be worth the pain. I think you did a great job supporting us and I cannot tell you how much strength it gives us to have such great friends and how good I feel getting your well wishes. Thank you!

 

Dave

 

Dave, Mumbles, and Burrito, I want you all to know that because of your courage in sharing what happened to you, and because you have stuck around, and kept posting even when use of your hands is difficult, newbies like me are buying PPE and deciding never to do fireworks without it. I'm going in with eyes wide open (behind safety glasses and covered with a face-shield)... leather gloves and welder's sleeves, and Nomex suit.

 

I'm not going to say, "It won't happen to me," but "I know it will happen in spite of all my careful precautions against it, so I'm going to wear my PPE!"

 

I hope that if I always wear a Nomex hoodie and coveralls, heat-resistant gloves and face shield, then after my fire has happened I'll still have all my fingers and be able to post on APC right away, saying,

 

"Guys! Guys! Man, you'll never believe what just happened! I am SO glad I listened to Mumbles and Dave and Burrito, because if I hadn't I would be on my way to the hospital instead of posting this to all of you!"

 

Thanks to all of you... and especially good wishes for a speedy recovery to Burrito, who was injured just last week.

 

-- Paravani

Edited July 13, 2014 by Paravani

[BurritoBandito]

Thank you Parvani. If we can learn from each others mistakes it gives purpose to our accidents. While I can't speak for Mumbles or Dag, I am sure they would agree. Reading posts where users are taking a break from pyro until they can acquire PPE brings a smile to my face. Jakenbake has volunteered to give lead media to anyone in need for free. If you're using anything other than lead, please take him up on his generous offer. Keep reading these safety threads, and you'll be off to a good start in pyro.

[MrB]

I could need (more) lead media, but free seams a bit rich, and, the shipping from cali would prolly beat (as in being a lot higher) the price of lead more locally anyway. But i suggest anyone in the states starting out, and needing media take the time to get more acquainted with that offer. Details on it anywhere BB ?

B!

[BurritoBandito]

I believe the offer was made on page 1 of the thread about my accident IIRC. basically he said that he had a bit of extra media he was willing to give to anyone who was using a sparking media. It is a very generous offer and I would like to see it go to someone who is in need.

[MrB]

It is indeed. I hope he got people taking up the offer.

B!

[Paravani]

 

My family accepted the gift of attending PGI convention this year at Mason City at no cost to us, the question I pose to my family here is do I "get back on the horse" or do I take up photography as my part at PGI?

All I ask is that you be kind with your answers, no trolls are needed to reply, this is a constructive conversation.

 

 

I'm with BB on this one: only you can make that decision. But after all you've been through... the pain, the changes, the huge expense... if you even need to ask that question, if you can even consider getting back on the horse... you must really love fireworking!

 

For what it's worth, I don't think you did anything "wrong" with that BP... it was more a matter of forgetting the primary rule of fireworking safety:

 

"If it can catch fire or explode in your face, it will. Sooner or later, it WILL, even if it never has before in identical circumstances."

 

Unfortunately, having had it happen once in no way protects you statistically from it happening again.

 

Human beings cope with danger by the mechanism of denial -- that's just how our brains work. The longer we manage to evade the danger, the stronger our denial becomes, unless we actively remind ourselves not to become complacent.

 

Complacency kills.

 

Statistics aren't going to keep us safe; experience isn't going to keep us safe; even the most cautious handling isn't going to 100% guarantee our safety.

 

The only protection against the fire and explosion that WILL happen to all of us -- sooner or later -- is wearing our PPE every time we're working with something that has the possibility of fire or explosion.

 

(For that matter, always making sure that we wear our PPE and follow safe practices won't 100% guarantee that we won't be badly burned... but it definitely ups the odds of making it out alive and in one piece, doesn't it?)

 

 

hindsight,

 

Thanks for the compliment but in reality, I just dont want others to go through what I have and feel it is my obligation to share what I know about the issue. I have no fear of pyro or BP but I will never make BP in a cement mixer or empty one again.

 

I have a lot to consider before even thinking about "getting back" to manufacturing (PGI, official club functions etc.) but my girls have already made the transition back and made shells last weekend at a club meet. The decision, when it is made, will be a family decision and not mine alone.

 

 

Thank you for posting this.

 

Yup, I totally agree! Working with smaller batches seems prudent, as well. There's another thread here where an experienced member debates whether quantity makes a difference. I think it's clear from your experience that working with larger quantities of materials definitely multiplies the hazard.

 

A pound of BP can blow your hands apart, yes; but several pounds can BBQ a body. So I'm thinking that no matter how tempted we might be by the efficiencies of large-scale production, none of us who value our lives should be milling BP in a cement-mixer, ever.

 

However... after reading all of your posts to this thread... it seems pretty clear that because of what has happened to you, if you do get back into fireworking, the chance of another injury like the one you've had is virtually nil because from now on, you'll keep yourself safe. I bet you'll always wear your PPE and stay aware of the fact that yes, this stuff catches fire and explodes. And because you'll have stopped relying on "experience" to keep you safe, and instead will rely only on yourself, you WILL be safe no matter what happens.

 

Anyway, whatever you choose to do, Dave, I hope that you stay active in the hobby if only as a photographer and an advisor, because I'd love to meet you at PGI one of these years.

 

-- Paravani

 

[dagabu]

We will see, in any case, my family feels I should stay with small rockets and shells if I do go back. Nothing too large and nothing made outside of guild meetings etc. I have been working on turning stainless and aluminum again, making 7/16" and 1/2" end burner sets for homemade tubes to give to parents of kids interested in pounding end burners.

 

​My experience with an e-match in the side of a 1/2" BP endburner with rammer and on a spindle showed mild burns to a glove "holding" the rammer and the witness boards showing slight discoloration after ignition. About the safest pyro I can think of making. Since I like monocopters and endburners so much, these little guys would keep me busy for quite some time.

[BurritoBandito]

Dag, if it helps your decision any, I have elected to stick to theoretical pyro until my girls are old enough to take care of themselves. I still love pyro, and will be reading and learning. I just have to put my family first.

[ddewees]

Wise decision

[hindsight]

BurritoBandito, I strongly support your decision. Your daughters have an irreplaceable asset.

[MrB]

Dag, if it helps your decision any, I have elected to stick to theoretical pyro until my girls are old enough to take care of themselves. I still love pyro, and will be reading and learning. I just have to put my family first.

Family is important. Not that i have one of my own. You got more support from over here, as i said before, i'd support pretty much anything you decided to go with from here on. I admit, i did hope you'd return to pyro sooner then that, but thats just my own sense of imaginary immortality speaking.

Theoretical pyro lets you go in to weird and wonderful territory, such as NC based fireworks. Have a blast, so to speak. The way things are going, i imagine more and more might start look to NC based fireworking in the next 10-15 years or so, especially over here in Europe. That is, unless EU implodes, and social unrest makes a lot of laws go away...

B!

[dagabu]

Dag, if it helps your decision any, I have elected to stick to theoretical pyro until my girls are old enough to take care of themselves. I still love pyro, and will be reading and learning. I just have to put my family first.

 

Being 14 months out and still another month until PGI, I have had and have plenty of time to see how I end up going. I will likely pound out some small motors to fly.

[nater]

There is still a lot of fun to be had with small end burners. Monocopters, dolas, wheels, saxons, ground bloom flowers, etc...

[alpinecb]

You guys rock!! I still am thinking about the kilo batch of bp I made last weekend in the ball mill, shaking the jar every couple of hours (using lead and brass media) . On a positive note, my welding gloves, respirator, and chemical gloves just arrived. I wish you guys the best and hope everyone will learn PPE from this. I have been lax. Still need to get a full face shield. (sure is hot in Alabama, but no worries with the humidity . )

 

Charles

[Paravani]

You guys rock!! I still am thinking about the kilo batch of bp I made last weekend in the ball mill, shaking the jar every couple of hours (using lead and brass media) . On a positive note, my welding gloves, respirator, and chemical gloves just arrived. I wish you guys the best and hope everyone will learn PPE from this. I have been lax. Still need to get a full face shield. (sure is hot in Alabama, but no worries with the humidity . )

 

Charles

 

A kilo? That's 2.2 pounds, right? How big a cremora would it have made if it had ignited out of the mill as Dagabu's did?

 

I have a book -- a skinny book, a couple of decades old, and kind of funny in that the author has an unusual point of view -- but it's well written, somewhat entertaining, and seems to have a wealth of good information. The title is "Do-It-Yourself Gunpowder", and it's about making BP one way or the other. The author, Don McLean, seems to really know his stuff -- not just about the chemistry of BP, but also about the history of it, and most especially, the practical aspects of working with it.

 

His safety rules are few but explicit. I'm going to paraphrase:

 

1. Remember that this stuff burns. It only explodes if confined in a strong container that

builds up pressure, so store it in small "soft" containers like plastic bottles or

Tupperware containers. If it does explode anyway, at least the shrapnel won't be metal

or glass.

 

2. Never store large quantities all in the same place. Store it away from dwellings, in a safe

place where if (when!) it does explode, no one will be hurt and nothing valuable will be

destroyed.

 

3. Always assume that sooner or later, something WILL set it off. Do not make the mistake

of thinking you can entirely control WHEN.

 

If (when!) it explodes, you want to survive, right? So never work with large quantities,

work away from any dwelling or flammables, and always ALWAYS wear your PPE!

 

The author's rule #4 is:

 

4. Eliminate every source of ignition from your workplace -- metal tools or brushes, wool and

synthetic fibers, motors or radios, etc. ...

 

But I think a better #4 is:

 

4. COMPLACENCY KILLS.

 

Never feel confident that you have eliminated every source of ignition from your workplace.

 

There will always be something you've overlooked, even if it's just the static charge

generated by the powder itself as it mixes in the mill.

 

NEVER be complacent -- always stay alert, aware that you are working with compounds that

are designed to burn or explode, and that may in fact do so while you are handling them.

 

Last rule:

 

5. Read #3 again, and believe it!

That's it -- those are the five rules of safety.

 

Small, soft containers... stored away from valuable people and property... in small amounts... in SMALL amounts... wear your PPE... do your best to eliminate sources of ignition... but NEVER let yourself lapse into complacency.

 

Oh, and the second paragraph of the second chapter begins with this interesting observation:

Because the oxidizer must be very thoroughly and intimately mixed with the fuels, the old-timers mixed it for a long time, increasing the likelihood of its ignition, particularly in a dry stamp mill. Later, the practice of keeping the mix damp both reduced the danger of ignition and tended to impregnate the porous charcoal with saltpeter solution. (Italics mine.)

 

Is it still common practice to dampen the powder before/during milling? I haven't heard anyone here refer to dampening the powder in the mill, but maybe I just haven't been paying attention.

 

-- Paravani

 

Edited July 14, 2014 by Paravani

[MrB]

Dampening it before milling? Most likely still happening in stamp / hammer mills. If for no other purpose, so to keep the dust levels down.

Doesn't work for us in the ball mills.

B!