dagabu Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 I understand that your memory on the accident is pretty limited, however I am hoping that there are certain details which you may recall. Such as: 1) Was this standard BP you were emptying from your mill?No, it was some really hot charcoal.2) What was the media made from?Zirc-M, non-sparking, there was no falling media at the time.3) What was the surface you were emptying onto?5 Gallon plastic bucket, about 4" of powder/media all ready in the bucket when the fire started.4) Was your charcoal screened before being milled, or was there the potential for a stray object?No potential, bug magnets in the ground charcoal, no sign of metals.5) Any other potential factors that you think may have played a hand?I don't know, electrical? I thought I had unplugged it first, no investigation means we will never know. I know that absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence, but I have failed to ignite BP with the arc from a 150,000 volt stun gun. Do you think static could have been the culprit? My 'guess' is static but I don't know, I do know that I have been able to get BP to light easily with static charges from a key to ground with a small pile of BP in between and even in an aluminum bowl in the sun (both were tests, not accidents). If you do not feel comfortable answering any of these questions I will understand entirely. I do not ask to try and determine "what you did wrong", but how I can avoid the same circumstances that led up to your incident. Thank you for sharing the details that you have already, and anymore that you see fit. I accept this as 100% my fault, no body or nothing else, just me. I wish I knew what it was so I could warn others but I just dont have a clue. For me going forward, I will sit out on manufacturing.
BurritoBandito Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 Some things are unpredictable, and it's impossible to account for every single danger. The best we can hope for is to minimize risks to a "safe" level. Even if the chances of ignition are 1 in 1,000,000 someone has to be that 1. Sadly, in this case it was you. You can not beat yourself up over this. It is good to see you manning up and owning the accident, but it could've just as easily happened to any of us. I am thankful that you have the balls to share your story with us. It is a tragic event, but hopefully someone else can learn from your experience. If nothing else it goes to show that something as "insensitive" as BP is still energetic enough to do some serious damage, even unconfined. It also highlights that maybe BP isn't as insensitive as many of us would like to believe.
spitfire Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 If nothing else it goes to show that something as "insensitive" as BP is still energetic enough to do some serious damage, even unconfined. It also highlights that maybe BP isn't as insensitive as many of us would like to believe.I think you got that pointed out pretty well BB. First i was comfortable with fresh milled BP, then cautious, now extremely cautious. This is the 3rd accident i heard of, that happened basically on the same moment: emptying the mill and sieving the powder from the media. I did some crazy stuff in the past but this gives me chills to the bone.
dagabu Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 After all is said and done, i dont think that any fear or paranoia is in order, just good common sense, use the right tools, PPE and be prepared for the worst. I had 75% of my gear on, missing was the gloves and helmet.
hindsight Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 dagabu,I never imagined that the details about the incident would be made known for reasons possibly affecting you personally and legally. But the story you tell has totally changed my attitude toward ball milling and serves as a poignant lesson. Lusting after Zirconium media because it was "safe" and didn't contaminate the BP with lead is now a thing of the past, as is feeling secure because the humidity is high. It would have been easier to hear a tale about you wearing fuzzy woolen slippers and smoking a cigarette while dumping the mill next to a sparking motor on a bone dry day. So, yeah, now it's time for paranoia, which is still a "healthy disease". Thanks for helping to keep us safe.
nater Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I won't lie, I was a little nervous the first time I emptied my mill jar after this happened. I have not used my ceramic media for a complete comp since then either.
pyrokid Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Which causes stronger impacts: normal milling or emptying the jar?
dagabu Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 dagabu,I never imagined that the details about the incident would be made known for reasons possibly affecting you personally and legally. But the story you tell has totally changed my attitude toward ball milling and serves as a poignant lesson. Lusting after Zirconium media because it was "safe" and didn't contaminate the BP with lead is now a thing of the past, as is feeling secure because the humidity is high. It would have been easier to hear a tale about you wearing fuzzy woolen slippers and smoking a cigarette while dumping the mill next to a sparking motor on a bone dry day. So, yeah, now it's time for paranoia, which is still a "healthy disease". Thanks for helping to keep us safe. I have no reason not to share now, to keep this to myself would be a crime in my mind. I am questioning the reasons why you would think that Zirc-M isn't safe? the fire had nothing to do with the media at all, I was scooping it all with my hands, I didn't drop anything or cause a lot of dust, there was no contamination with any of the BP I had made before and no damage to the media ever presented itself. I can handily eliminate the media from the cause source.
bob Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Hi Dagabu,Thanks for sharing your experience with us, I am sure it will change many of our habits for the better.I just have two questions if you don't mind, did you have safety glasses on? And do you think if you had been wearing welding gloves that your hands would have been unscathed?I wish you the best Dag.bob
dagabu Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 It's rather gruesome but I was indeed wearing safety glasses, that's why I still have vision in both eyes but I did watch the lenses melt off my face while the fire burned. The eyes just would not close right away. Yes, welding gauntlets would have resulted in first degree burns, a jacket would have saved me from stomach grafts and a face shield and helmet would have resulted in only second degree burns to my head.
hindsight Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) "I am questioning the reasons why you would think that Zirc-M isn't safe? the fire had nothing to do with the media at all, I was scooping it all with my hands, I didn't drop anything or cause a lot of dust, there was no contamination with any of the BP I had made before and no damage to the media ever presented itself.I can handily eliminate the media from the cause source." -dagabuDag,Thanks for the clarification regarding the status of the Zirc at the time of the incident. It is not that I believed the media to be "unsafe" , nor do I subscribe to the fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc, it is just the knowledge (emotionally) that the media was an element at the scene of the mishap-- a kind of guilt by association. Your description of the additional details returns my interest in the terribly expensive media, but the purchase is on hold until my next bank robbery or until an (as yet unknown) rich uncle dies.Also, appreciated your suggestions for wearing protective gear and the specific injuries it might prevent. Your willingness to share particulars of that awful event speaks volumes about your character.Best regards,hindsight Edited June 1, 2014 by hindsight
dagabu Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 hindsight, Thanks for the compliment but in reality, I just dont want others to go through what I have and feel it is my obligation to share what I know about the issue. I have no fear of pyro or BP but I will never make BP in a cement mixer or empty one again. I have a lot to consider before even thinking about "getting back" to manufacturing (PGI, official club functions etc.) but my girls have already made the transition back and made shells last weekend at a club meet. The decision, when it is made, will be a family decision and not mine alone. 2
Mumbles Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 This probably brings up a conversation we had here not to long ago on the difference between relative humidity and absolute humidity. I've always been concerned with this personally, and for this reason never really work in the winter. 100% humidity at 32F would probably be considered too dry at 70.
dagabu Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 Honestly, I dont know the difference between the two. What I do know is that it was in the high 50's and it was humid on the skin, not uncomfortable but not dry. Was it static? Wish I knew...
BurritoBandito Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) I dug up the thread if your interested Dag. Nessalco provided some very interesting info. Here is the link. Edited June 2, 2014 by BurritoBandito
dagabu Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 From the day of my accident: Lowest Relative Humidity : 63 % : At : 2 p.m.Highest Relative Humidity : 100 % : At : 2 – 4 , 6 & 8 a.m. : Had Dense Fog during the 12 – 8 a.m. hoursLowest Dew Point Temperature : 63 ° At : 1 – 4 a.m.Highest Dew Point Temperature : 72 ° At : 7 – 9 p.m.
bob Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 Hi Dagabu, Thanks so much for answering my questions. Now I have another question, you said in another topic that the mill had "meal (green)" in it, and I just wanted to clarify something, was this powder fully milled? But by the grace of God there go I.
dagabu Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 According to several authors, it's all meal until it's picked and corned. Some consider it rough powder, others call it green meal and still others call it meal dust. Yes, it was fully milled and ready to be balled and screened.
pyroman2498 Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 If you don't mind me asking , what where your socks made out of when you where doing this ? I'm expecting that you worse cotton on the rest of your body but we don't thing about socks and the socks rubbing with the shoes to create static , I'm not gonna ask about underwear but I think you know what I'm getting at , it's the simple things that don't sound like they can cause a disaster that cause a disaster. Sorry if it's to soon to ask some of these questions , re living the experience in your head is just as bad as we. It happens Stay Safe and Stay Green ~Steven
dagabu Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 Cotton socks and undies (perv!) Shoes are ED soles, pretty standard for me since I do a lot of computer (hardware) work.
pyroman2498 Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 Sorry Dave , I'm just going through possibilities . Sounds like this was a ounce in a life time occurring event ,I can see opening a mill full of a metallic powered and it catching fire , but BP... I feel really sorry for you Dave Stay Safe and Stay Green ~Steven
dagabu Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 Sorry Dave , I'm just going through possibilities .Sounds like this was a ounce in a life time occurring event ,I can see opening a mill full of a metallic powered and it catching fire , but BP...I feel really sorry for you Dave Stay Safe and Stay Green ~Steven Steve, You gotta take that back!! NO pity, NONE! No feeling sorry for me or my family. We have learned to love each other more, how to share our experiences with others and give back to those in need though not financially at this time but that will come. Once in a life time? Perhaps but we will be careful going forward just in case. 2
ddewees Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 Looks aren't everything (thank goodness), welcome back Dave.
pyroman2498 Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 Thanks Dave , Even though i dont know you as much as the others, i feel kinda like part of the family , you have such a way to make even a bad thing into a better thing If there is anything i can help out with just send me a message, im usually always on here. Stay Safe and Stay green ~Steven
Recommended Posts