Appearance and danger of pottasium nitrate and pottasium chlorate

[nesc39]

After learning how dangerous that Pottasium Chlorate is when mixed with sulfur I was wondering how to tell the difference between Pottasium Nitrate and Pottasium Chlorate when there appearance is so alike. I believe they are both white crystal in appearance. The dangerous scenario that i am afraid of is that a supplier could mistakenly send a shipment of Pottasium Chlorate on accident when the order is for Pottasium Nitrate. With such a busy time of year I dont think that its to far fetched that in a rush the 2 chemicals could be mislabled or mistaken for one another. The customer then recieves the chlorate and attempts to ball mill black powder and it explodes. Therefor my question is there a way to distinguish between the two and know for sure which product you have recieved without just relying on a label?

[fredhappy]

#nesc39: I am by no means a chemist, but I ve remembered watching this youtube vid.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXScgXleLX8

 

perhaps you can try to replicate this experiment and compare the reaction . I highly doubt potassium nitrate would react as violently as chlorate does to the addition of sugar.

Edited May 19, 2013 by fredhappy

[dan999ification]

Kno3 is far more soluble than kclo3, the msds is your friend.

sulphuric acid will ignite kclo3.

Take a tenth of a gram ( no more ) of kclo3 on a concrete surface put the same amount of sulphur on top then slide a hammer over it, kno3 will not react.

I think it's highly unlikely that a mistake like this could happen, the suppliers know the dangers and the consequences, one is also more expensive

 

Dan.

[FlaMtnBkr]

Easy, just buy drums of chlorate.

 

Or maybe a 50 lb bag of nitrate. I buy 50# bags of fertilizer and it is granular crystals like sugar, where chlorate is a fine powder.

 

You can also mix a very small amount with some sulfur and put on a steel plate and rub with a hammer. Should hear some small pops and it smell like a match lighting.

 

Sulfuric battery acid is also supposed to cause chlorate to light when a couple drops applied. Except I tried it with new battery acid and nothing happened.

 

It sounds like you might be new to pyro which I suggest waiting a while to use chlorate and stick with perchlorate for now. There isn't much you need chlorate for that perchlorate won't work. Then you don't have to worry about the dangers of chlorate and it's incompatibilities. Just a suggestion.

[killforfood]

I dont think that its to far fetched that in a rush the 2 chemicals could be mislabled or mistaken for one another.

Not far fetched at all.

I received a 2lb container a few years ago that was marked both ways.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/killforfood/Pyro/IMG_0887.jpg

 

Back to lurking

[DubaiAmateurRocketry]

Ok , chlorate decomposes exothermically so it burns hotter and more violently than KNO3 which decomposes very endothermically does.

[dan999ification]

I don't suggest using it either, I still won't.. No need.

The acid must be conc which I also don't advise, kno3 and h2so4 will produce nitric acid, also a bad idea for a beginner.

Overall the safest and probably most simple test woul be to make some colour star comp..... Kno3 will not allow most colours to show since it burns too hot.

 

Dan.

[nesc39]

Guys thank you so much for the replies..... Fred I will watch that video right after this. Dan I will try the sulphur hammer idea, thanks. Flamtnbiker I'm new to this and would never need that much but thank you for the suggestion. Kilforfood that exactly what I'm talking about! The scariest part is that I ordered from the same place as you, I can tell by the label, now I'm even more nervous! For everyone; just to be clear I want NOTHING to do with chlorate! I was nervous about getting chlorate on accident. I have no plans to ever use it for anything. As a beginner sticking to BP is fine. Just for reference what in your opinion is the "safest" star mix to make, color does not matter.

[dan999ification]

Safest star as in to test between kno3 and kclo3 or safest star in general for a beginner?

You can get good colours with kclo4 and avoid the risks associated with kclo3 but this hobby/profession will never be completely safe.

 

Dan.

[Mumbles]

Anyone who tells you that sulfuric acid will cause chlorate to ignite is kind of a moron. It might sizzle or hiss or something, but it's certainly not going to burst into flames. You need a fuel of some sort for that to happen. Generally one mixes sugar with chlorate for that test. The ratios really aren't very critical, roughly 1:1 by volume is usually sufficient. An ignition will differentiate chlorate from perchlorate or nitrate.

 

I'd just use solubility to differentiate them if I was worried. They have vastly different solubilities. KNO3 will also get kind of cold when you add it to water.

 

If you want to get fancy, there are a bunch of chemical spot tests too. It's always a good idea to have known samples of each compound to do positive and negative control reactions.

[schroedinger]

Why so complicated?

 

Like mumbles said,mix with sugar, chlorate/perc burns a lot faster then nitrate.

 

Next get Methylene blue, HCl, Indigocarmine, Iron powder, conc. sulfuric acid, some test tubes.

 

Now dissolve some powder in distilled water. move it over to the three test tubes prepared for Chlorate (Indigo carmine, HCl), Perchlorate (Methylen blue) and Nitrate (brown ring test, prepare iron(II) sulphate from conc. sulphuric acid and Iron and then add Water to get the diluted solution) test.

 

This takes maybe 5 min with preparation and cleaning up and you now for sure what you got (special if you perc contains chlorate)

[nesc39]

Hey Dan I was referring to the "safest" star mix in general, definitely not using kclo3. Basically a star mix that is as stable and insensitive as it could get. I know nothing in this hobby is safe, so many things can go wrong.

 

Mumbles I like your solubility suggestion, I just read that 1 gram of kno3 dissolves in 2.8ml of water as opposed to 1 gram of kclo3 to 17ml of water. I won't get a dangerous reaction from either of them added to sepetate tubes of water correct? If I were to add sugar to chlorate in powder form would it instanltly react violently or would it need to be mixed, heated,etc. I was thinking .3grams of each in a pile.

 

Schroedinger thanks for the idea but sounds like I need a lab for that one.

[Mumbles]

Solubility will be the easiest, and will definitely differentiate nitrate from chlorate or perchlorate. Going by your numbers, 1g of product in 5-10mL of water should tell you. It's better to use something in the middle of the two. It can be hard to dissolve everything if you try to get too close to the absolute solubility even if it is really nitrate. Also be aware that some anti-cakes won't dissolve so your solution might still be a little turbid or cloudy.

 

Just dissolved in water they'll be totally benign. If it's really nitrate you can just dump it out on the grass. It might make it a little greener actually. If it's chlorate, dumping it on grass will probably kill it.

 

Adding sugar to chlorate will not instantly ignite or anything. Keep the sample size small though. In the grand scheme of things, it is one of the more sensitive chlorate mixtures, but it still takes deliberate effort to ignite or set it off. Mixing shouldn't set it off or anything. A solid hammer strike will do it. As will a drop of concentrated sulfuric acid. It should be noted that sulfuric acid does react with sugar itself. With chlorate it should ignite pretty quickly. With nitrate, it will probably turn black and bubble a little bit, but no fire.

[schroedinger]

Be sure for these test you won`t need a lab. Just get a big plastic chopping board, to put under the working place.

Methylene Blue is really a strong die.

Work close to a open window, or go outside when working with the HCl, that`s the only thing whats really dangerous during this test, as long as you don`t spill sulfiric acid.

 

You can prepare the test solution ones and keep em for a couple years, without any problems.

 

When doin`g it by dissolving the stuff. Dissolve you`re substance in hot Water and let it coll down. If it`s nitrate nothing will crystallise, if it`s chlorate/perc it will crystallise and you also see, if you got unsoluble thing in you`re stuff. Also chlorates are easy to determine, as the christallise in smal, thin flakes (if you saw them once, you will be able to recognize em for sure). Nitrates form needles

[psyco_1322]

I would just like to add that battery acid is only about 30% sulfuric acid. You will be better using some good, proven drain cleaner for the tests. There are a few drain cleaners that are well concentrated enough to use for the tests.

 

Sulfuric acid and sugar just make a nasty black "snake thing". With chlorate added in, it will ignite and burn. Perchlorate or nitrate will not cause it to ignite.

[dan999ification]

Ok so I watched the reaction of sugar kclo3 and h2so4 before I posted that, while editing my post before submitting I deleted some text I didn't replace, I've seen the black carbon snake before ( and thought charcoal, but alas no)

I'm no chemist but also not kind of a moron, a simple mistake to make.

Actually I was right on all I said for it to be doubted( not corrected) and repeated as fact further on, thanks for the de- framing.

 

It feels cold round here.

Dan.

Edited May 22, 2013 by dan999ification

[Peret]

It's a reasonable worry. I once put a batch of BP in the ball mill and then thought hmm, strange, the potassium nitrate didn't have any lumps in it like usual. Turned out to be perchlorate, fortunately with anti-cake otherwise I wouldn't have noticed the difference. The package was labeled correctly, but I had nitrate and perc together on the same shelf and just didn't read past the word "potassium". I stopped the mill immediately, but if it had been chlorate it would probably have been too late. Now I take care to keep my oxidizers well separated.

 

It's easy to find out if an unidentified powder is nitrate - you can buy a simple kit for testing aquarium water at any pet shop.

[dan999ification]

These kits can also find ammonia with nitrates

 

Dan.

[TheExplosionist]

.Take a tenth of a gram ( no more ) of kclo3 on a concrete surface put the same amount of sulphur on top then slide a hammer over it, kno3 will not react.

 

Enclose a small amount of kclo3 and sulphur in aluminium foil and hit it firmly with a hammer. It will go bang.

 

edit: The friction of a pestle & mortar will also ignite it as I remember back in the old days.

Edited May 22, 2013 by TheExplosionist

[dan999ification]

There's a reason I did not suggest that to a beginner or on an open forum, in most countries it is illegal to mix the two full stop.

 

Dan.

[Zumber]

try out this test.

Credit of this test goes to apc member PW.

Powdered KNO3,KClO4 and KClO3 has tendancy to cake during storage.

Caution-do this test outside and away from flammable materials.

Match box contains red phosphrous to its both sides,

take a match box and a small lump(stone) of KNO3 and rub it on one side of a match box,you will see there is no spark.

Now take potassium perchlorate and rub it on other side of match box there will be a spark.

Now through this match box away and take new one and rub small stone of potassium chlorate there will be a spark and small noise (like when single dragon egg explodes) but not too loud.

The reason for taking new match boxes is to avoid faulty readings.

KClO3 and red phosphrous is extremely sensitive,perchlorates and red phosphrous are less sensitive than chlorate.

[TheExplosionist]

There's a reason I did not suggest that to a beginner or on an open forum, in most countries it is illegal to mix the two full stop.

 

Dan.

 

Pretty much everything involving energetic materials is illegal here in the UK.

Healthy and safety has gone crazy in this country - search for "triangular flapjacks".