TranslucentDragon Posted April 29, 2013 Author Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) Ok, being a beginner don't be, "You gotta be kidding me man", but what is a plug used for? Is the fuel at the bottom of the rocket open to the air and a nozzle is drilled in, or is it covered by something and then a nozzle is drilled in to it. Edited April 29, 2013 by TranslucentDragon
TranslucentDragon Posted April 29, 2013 Author Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) It being hard to get my point across, here is an image of what I drew (no judging of my paint skills). The circles are looking up from the bottom, and the rectangle are the casing of the rocket and the insides... Yellow is fuel, brown is a seperator/spacer, the drilled hole being the black thing in the middle. Which figure would be right? Edited April 29, 2013 by TranslucentDragon
nater Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 You're close. It sounds like you need a good introduction to the different types of rockets we discuss here. Since you say you want to make bottle rockets, we'll focus on pyro rockets and save the discussion of other types for another day. Rather than type everything out, I'll refer you to a good article written by an expert builder. http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/intro-to-rockets.asp Please read it over, I think it will clear a few things up for you. Then ask away with other questions you have.
BurritoBandito Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 1) Take a piece of PVC pipe of let's say 5' long 1' inner diameter.2) Cut a wooden dowel about 6' long to use as a dowel.3) Place a piece of masking tape over the bottom of the tube to hold in the kitty litter.4) In small increments begin ramming the kitty litter in. Stop when 1.25' of dowel sticks out while it is fully inserted into the PVC.5) Tightly roll a few piece of paper which is 4'x3.25' of paper around a just slightly sanded 1' diameter dowel, the sanding will allow it to fit inside the PVC. Secure it with a few drops of glue at beginning and end of roll (secure the paper to itself, not the dowel). The goal is to make a paper tube that is 3.25' long and fits snugly into the PVC. Push this tube down all the way down into the PVC until it hits the kitty litter. Drop just a drop or two of glue down into the PVC to glue the liner to the kitty litter.6) Ram your fuel the same way you did the litter, small increments. Stop when there is 1' of space left in the PVC.7) Ram kitty litter into the tube again, stop when there is 1/4' of space left. This end will be your nozzle.8) Drill a hole through the kitty litter and the fuel grain in the end with the 1/4' lip. Try to center it and be as straight as possible, a drill with a surface level helps. Drill down until you are around 3.25' deep. BE CAREFUL! Drilling the hole can create enough heat to ignite the fuel. Do it hand or in small increments allowing the drill bit time to cool in between.9) Glue on stick. Make sure it is straight and that it passes the finger balance test.10) Insert fuse as far into engine as possible.11) Place stick inside of vertical pipe with rocket end facing up.12) Light fuse and get back. You should take pictures to post here and make sure you document everything you do thoroughly, this will help you figure out problems and recreate successful builds. Hopefully I didn't miss anything or missinform you. If I did someone else will probably catch it.
nater Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 I know the PVC casing is sometimes used in the amateur rocketry world, and I know there is a book all about the homemade PVC motor. However, PVC is a terrible choice for a motor casing. In the likely event of a CATO while learning how to build motors, you will send sharp pieces of PVC shrapnel all over the place. I will also guarantee that the safety team at our club shoots will not allow such devices to be fired.
BurritoBandito Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 Yeah, that's true. A good stiff convolute wrapped paper tube is much safer. I've never had a full blown CATO using PVC and litter. I have just blown some nozzles out. I don't rough up the inside of the PVC or any of that crap either though.
TranslucentDragon Posted April 29, 2013 Author Posted April 29, 2013 Ok, I see what's happening, but what is a plug used for? Just to keep the rocket aerodynamic and to keep the fuel from burning the wrong way? And so to compress a fuel you shove a stick up its... uh.. butt and hit it with a hammer? Ouch.. don't ever want to be a rocket. Where would you find such a tube(non-internet wise). Any "ghetto" ways for a casing? What else can you use.
nater Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 You can roll a tube using strips from poster board, manilla file folders or kraft paper. Search for threads on how to roll tubes. It isn't too hard, but takes some practice. Excellent tubes can be bought from Hobby Horse - http://www.hobbyhorse.com/pyro_tubes.shtml The clay plug on the bottom end of the rocket, which has the hole in it, is the nozzle. Its purpose it to speed up the gasses from the burning fuel to improve thrust. Some builders use a solid bulkhead of clay over the fuel. This is to prevent the fuel from blowing out the wrong end of the motor from too much pressure. ... And so to compress a fuel you shove a stick up its... uh.. butt and hit it with a hammer? Ouch.. don't ever want to be a rocket. ... This comment makes me think you are young . . . Making rockets or any other pyro devices has inherent risks. It is also not a cheap hobby. Things to think about.
TranslucentDragon Posted April 30, 2013 Author Posted April 30, 2013 I'm in my teens and I intend to follow all safety precautions and I have the ability to work if I need money. I've been trying to find a hobby for a while now, not really good with sticking things out, but I hope this might be something I can. I've been stalking the safety tab for a while now and kinda realized that if I'm going to do this, I need to make sure that I'm doing it safely. And do you think masking tape wrapped many, many times around a bottle rocket sized cylinder of propellant with a sparkler as a fuse and to stabilize the rocket would work? That's all I've come up with (trying to keep it pretty ghetto{for lack of a better term}).
nater Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 And do you think masking tape wrapped many, many times around a bottle rocket sized cylinder of propellant with a sparkler as a fuse and to stabilize the rocket would work? That's all I've come up with (trying to keep it pretty ghetto{for lack of a better term}). No, not likely - for both things. If you tend to jump from hobby to hobby, maybe you should sit on this for a while. Read some books on rocketry and fireworks and see if it retains your interest. Test the waters by going to a hobby store and picking up a model rocket kit and firing a few of those. They're fun to build, legal to fly in most places, and safe. Those are all good combinations for someone your age. That said, I've met a few young teenagers who were learning how to build their own. They had the support and personal instruction of family members who are also involved in the hobby. The PGI, which hosts an annual fireworks convention has the JPA for kids. They plan a show and work on age appropriate workshops during the week, all well supervised. Those kids looked like they were enjoying themselves, and I know I would have enjoyed it as a teenager. If this hobby is something you want to follow through with, you really need the support and involvement of your family. The consequences of failure here can be devastating to your and your family, if not fatal.
TranslucentDragon Posted April 30, 2013 Author Posted April 30, 2013 If you can think of any free books I could read I would and will read them. I've fired model rockets before and that's where I gained the interest to make the fuels. Where is the convention held? Plus, the reason I'm starting with sugar fuel is because I know it's pretty basic, and if I am correct, won't blowup in your face...most likely. I'm still confused on the fuse I should use because it was said there is a chance visco won't light RCandy, so black match?
BurritoBandito Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 I don't think that you need a book for this specific task. This thread alone has all of the information you need to go build a rocket. Now, if you want a book about pyrotechnics TurboPyro would be a decent place to start. I've only recently acquired it and while I will say that the book didn't really have the information that I was hoping it would, it does have instructions to build 10 different quality pyrotechnic devices. I have read the title Pyrotechnia thrown about here quite a bit by some of the more respectable members of this forum. I can't personally attest to it being any good, but I expect it would be... I am interested in checking it out. Most of what I've learned has came from the net. There's a lot of (sometimes deliberately) false information out there too though. Try to steer clear of sites with authors who's names are "The Jolly Roger" or "Exodus".
burnie Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 Next step Hello, I have found this site and others very useful in my search to find a more economical way to launch my RC rocket gliders. I have had good success with rammed sugar rocket motors and have progressed to black powder rockets. Now I am hooked on pyrotechnics! I have ordered a pumped star kit from Skylighter to do some headers on 1/2 id rockets. Logically what is the next step, I'm thinking shells. Any suggestions? I don't mean to bogart this thread, but I cant start a new one. Sugar rockets are/is my genesis into pyro, never made the melted method.
TranslucentDragon Posted May 1, 2013 Author Posted May 1, 2013 I'll check it out but I currently have a list of books I need to read so it might be a while. And I'm thinking for the time being, I will stick with sugar rockets and try different forms of the fuel. And not that this really need be said, but you're welcome on this thread and no, you didn't mess it up at all.
BurritoBandito Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 @burnie: You can start a new thread now. You just have to post once first. The admin of this awesome forum use that as an anti spammer tactic.
Mumbles Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 @burnie: You can start a new thread now. You just have to post once first. The admin of this awesome forum use that as an anti spammer tactic. It's sort of annoying but incredibly effective. This combined with some new stuff in the software itself lead to maybe half a dozen spammers a year. I'm in my teens and I intend to follow all safety precautions and I have the ability to work if I need money. I've been trying to find a hobby for a while now, not really good with sticking things out, but I hope this might be something I can. I've been stalking the safety tab for a while now and kinda realized that if I'm going to do this, I need to make sure that I'm doing it safely. And do you think masking tape wrapped many, many times around a bottle rocket sized cylinder of propellant with a sparkler as a fuse and to stabilize the rocket would work? That's all I've come up with (trying to keep it pretty ghetto{for lack of a better term}). I will let you know in advance that trying to take shortcuts from the very beginning will only slow your advancement. I speak from experience on this one. Getting some good resources (unfortunately not free usually) and doing things the right way from the beginning will make things so much easier for you. I keep this forum free to allow a decent resource for getting people interested. Taking it to the next level generally requires investment into paid online pyrotechnic communities and well established literature sources. Also, fair warning, regularly trying to take shortcuts or make things "ghetto" style can come off as not taking things seriously to some people. If you get off on the wrong foot with some people, they may choose not to help you in the future if they feel their experience and advice wont be taken to heart or be worthwhile to spend the time to type out.
TranslucentDragon Posted May 1, 2013 Author Posted May 1, 2013 So right now, it seems my biggest issue is finding something to hold the fuel in small enough to be a bottle rocket. Anyone know where I can get a dozen sturdy cardboard tubes about that size?
BurritoBandito Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 Make them by getting a 1' wooden dowel and tightly wrapping thick paper and glue until the wall is around 1/8' thick. Make sure there are no air bubbles or glue pockets in paper as you are going. Then slide the paper tube off and let it dry. If you need a dozen then make a few long ones and cut them with a hacksaw once dried.
TranslucentDragon Posted May 1, 2013 Author Posted May 1, 2013 The reason, although I'm trying not to make excuses, I wanted to make it "ghetto"(seriously need a better term for this) is because I'm not sure if a visco fuse would work and from what I've seen from a quick google search is that to get black match, I would either have to make it or buy 300 feet of it, and I don't have a use for 300 feet nor have the ingredients to make; plus, this is my first project and I'm hesitant to use a lot of resources and money. I appreciate the paper and glue around a wooden dowel idea, and I think I'm going to use that. Lastly, I am sorry if I offended anyone in taking shortcuts in this project, as these were not my intentions, and I'm not planning to take any more.
nater Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 If visco won't work to light the RCandy, Black Match won't either. If you have a hard to light rocket, you need to prime the tip of your fuse with a hotter burning comp. The materials needed to make black match are by far the most common things used in pyrotechnics. If you are unwilling to get them, you wont' be able to make the prime for a fuse to ensure ignition. Visco (or black match) MIGHT light the RCandy, then again it might not. Most of the resources concerning sugar fuel are from the HPR crowd and they tend to use electronic ignition. I only recommended the prime on the fuse to ensure it will light. A good prime, as mentioned above, can be just black powder with a little metal added and "glued" to the tip of the fuse with nitrocellulose lacquer. I am sure you mean well, but if you're unwilling or unable to get the basic materials to get started in this, there is no point in offering further help. Sorry for sounding mean.
TranslucentDragon Posted May 1, 2013 Author Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) No, its fine, these things need to be said. And I can get them, but, again, I don't wanna get a bunch of materials for 1 rocket. I just remembered I have a model rocket set with a couple extra fuses that are the black tipped ones that you ignite with an electric button. Would that work? And I'm guessing Iron Oxide is a pretty good metal for the primer? Edited May 1, 2013 by TranslucentDragon
AirCowPeacock Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 Iron oxide isn't a metal anymore than potassium nitrate, sodium chloride, or aluminium acetate are metals.
dagabu Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 LOL! Nate, a dad got walked off with his son for attempting to use visco on a park flyer last fall at out local rocket club location. As far as I know, all rockets have to be E-matched at meets and events.
BurritoBandito Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 "No, its fine, these things need to be said. And I can get them, but, again, I don't wanna get a bunch of materials for 1 rocket. I just remembered I have a model rocket set with a couple extra fuses that are the black tipped ones that you ignite with an electric button. Would that work? And I'm guessing Iron Oxide is a pretty good metal for the primer?" @TranslucentDragon: Didn't you say you needed to make like a dozen of them? I assume you won't be firing this rocket off at any type of event, so if you have access to visco then just try a piece of it. A 1/8' piece of visco will probably light it, just make sure to cut it at an angle to expose more of the BP at the end that you are putting in your rocket. If you do choose to prime it I doubt you will need to add any metal, just use some good hot BP.
dagabu Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Visco comes in many makes, some don't have much fire and some will light a pinball! When I make R-candy motors, I use BP to fill the nozzle all the way up and put a piece of tape over the nozzle for storage. When I am ready to shoot the rocket, I poke the visco through the tape or slit the tape and slip in an e-match (or one of the black tipped ones you have for your rockets, TD) to light the BP in the nozzle. The BP is not compressed so it doesn't cause an explosion but super heats the fuel grain to ignite it. TranslucentDragon, I have some stuff that may help you out, shoot me a PM and lets talk off line...
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