Color of smoke from explosions?

[tangent]

Across the net, a number of people said the smoke from the Boston Marathon Bombing looked like after a fireworks display and one single news report said it was black powder. I went out searching for some sort of chart of the colors of smoke various explosives leave, and didn't find much. Just that Amatol also left white smoke. I'm aware that high explosives like C-4 and TNT generally have greasy, black smoke.

 

So does anyone know of such a chart or common colors / appearance of various explosives smoke?

 

It's not going to be good for us if it was BP.

 

-t

[psyco_1322]

I doubt it was true black powder, maybe some form of substitute like pyrodex. At least where I live, you can't find real black powder at the gun stores. If you are lucky, you might be able to find someone selling it out of their trailer at a gun show.

 

Black powder does usually produce a lot of white smoke. Typical flash powders are usually a bit less smoky and have a blue-ish tint to them. Nitrate based "slow flash" is very smoky stuff, with clouds of white smoke. HE is likely to not leave hardly any smoke at all, sometimes orange NOx gas clouds are seen though.

[tangent]

Thank you for the feedback. Interesting.

 

I just found this:

 

Smoke Color Is Key Clue to Analyzing Boston Marathon Bombs

 

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/04/boston-bomb-smoke/

 

As a team of investigators led by the FBI begins deciphering the bombs that killed three people and wounded 150 more in Boston this week, a key clue is already in plain sight on countless videos taken during the blasts: the color of the smoke.

The color provides important insights into the type of explosive used in the blasts, which President Obama on Tuesday characterized as “an act of terrorism.” Michael Marks has been watching those plumes as he views the photos and videos of the Boston Marathon attack. Marks retired from the Naval Criminal Investigative Service in August after analyzing bombings across the Mideast, including the 2000 attack on the USS Cole. The smoke color isn’t clear, but the signals it sends are important.

Analyzing the color of the smoke can provide information about the explosive that powered the bombs, which in turn provides clues about its sophistication — and, possibly, that of the people who made it. Such insights will be key for the inquiry, one of many pieces of evidence considered during the forensic analysis by investigators. Different chemical compositions, when subjected to heat and pressure, produce the different colors of smoke.

“Bright white smoke, that’s black powder,” Marks tells Danger Room. By black powder, he means typical gunpowder, the type you can purchase from commercial ammunition or cook up — dangerously — at home using sulfur and other ingredients with recipes easily found via Google. “Dirty grey [smoke], that’s high-explosive.”

The photo above, taken shortly after the Copley Square blast, shows plumes of white smoke. This Boston Globe video shows a grayer color for the bomb in the foreground, and a darker color for the second bomb in the background.

“I’m seeing both dirty grey and white,” Marks says.

 

That might be a trick of the light, a distortion of the imagery. Marks, who has 31 years experience in the Navy and local law enforcement, is anything but categorical. The imagery “tells me I’m too far away” from the scene, he says wryly. “In one explosion I saw both colors. That might not tell us anything.”

Further analysis might. The type of explosive used dictates how much is used to produce the deadly effect seen in Boston on Monday, and could contain clues about the sophistication of the bomb-makers — whomever they are. “You can kill yourself very easily” trying to homebrew high-explosives like acetone peroxide, commonly known as TATP, Marks said. The FBI is asking the public to tell law enforcement of any explosions they might have heard in remote areas that might indicate a “test” of the explosives.

The smoke color has been an indicator of powerful explosions in some of the most iconic and devastating terrorist attacks in the United States. The documentary history of the Murrah Building bombing in Oklahoma City in 1995 noted “a large black cloud of smoke” emerging; culprit Timothy McVeigh used a explosives made from fertilizer. Similarly, a survivor of the 1993 World Trade Center attack, which employed the class-A high explosive nitrourea (.PDF), recalled “greasy black smoke” filling his lungs.

Following up on news reports that circulated all day Tuesday, FBI special agent in charge Richard DesLauriers disclosed late Tuesday afternoon that what seems like a “pressure cooker device” formed the hull of the bomb, which may have contained “BBs [and] nails.” The Department of Homeland Security warned in 2004 that bomb design was common in Afghanistan (.pdf), although insurgent bombs in recent years tend to avoid metal. (To be clear, that would not be evidence that the bomb is foreign: designs for such bombs are easy to find online.) Marks saw similar designs in Bahrain, where he analyzed black-powder bombs encased in fire extinguishers.

The pressurization, if true, is another potential clue about the bomb’s explosive content.

“Black powder burns, it doesn’t explode,” Marks explains. “The explosion happens once the pressure builds up.” At that point, the shell becomes “primary fragmentation,” something adding to the shrapnel wounds reported by Boston hospitals treating the survivors.

The FBI-led investigation has asked Boston Marathon spectators to provide their photos and videos of the scene around Copley Square. But they may not need that crowdsourced footage to interpret the contents of the bombs. Explosives forensic investigations usually employ what’s called a presumptive test kit — you can buy one on Amazon — to test the scene for residue, often using a chemical aerosol spray like Expray. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which is assisting the investigation, has tremendous experience with black powder, Marks says, from checking out “people blowing up themselves with pipebombs.” DesLauriers said Tuesday that the collected evidence will be sent to the FBI explosive laboratory at Quantico, Virginia.

None of that resolves the harder question of identifying the bombmakers. The presumptive contents of the bombs — pressure cookers, some kind of black powder, maybe some kind of high-explosives — aren’t easy to trace back to a purchaser, especially if the bombmakers didn’t buy sufficiently vast quantities of precursor material to ping a law-enforcement watchlist. To find that out, investigators will have to follow different kinds of smoke signals.

 

-t

[AirCowPeacock]

When I heard that they found a crumpled, but intact pressure cooker lid--I was worried it was low explosive material, such as black powder.

[Bobosan]

...."The FBI is asking the public to tell law enforcement of any explosions they might have heard in remote areas that might indicate a “test” of the explosives."

 

BOHICA.....the witch hunt begins.

[AirCowPeacock]

Well, guess I better stay away from reports for a few months. It's amazing how fast people forget about--well--everything.

[NightHawkInLight]

Soon as I saw the explosion I thought ammonal. I also thought it may have been BP or flash, but since real BP is not easy to come by and the light output was not detectable on camera, ammonal was my first guess. I then realized that it didn't produce a visible shock wave so it was more likely to be BP or flash after all. I don't much care what it was at this point. I'm more interested now in how I'm going to make a monster of a perchlorate cell so I don't have to deal with the ever tightening lock downs.

[AirCowPeacock]

Maybe I should start perfecting KP for lifting large shells. . .

[FlaMtnBkr]

Lots of things produce white smoke. BP does as does pyrodex which you know if you shoot it in a black powder rifle. Flash is fairly white but as mentioned there didn't seem to be a bright metal fueled flash of light. AN based exploding targets are white. The Oklahoma bombing mentioned black smoke and that was surely from the diesel and not the AN. I seem to remember seeing a video from Boston that showed mainly white smoke but also a smaller amount of orangish smoke but I could be wrong. I haven't personally seen anything I remember making orange smoke. With all the flags right there, if it was a HE I would expect to see a shock wave move the flags. It could have been a lot of things and I'm surprised the government doesn't have fairly sophisticated ways of determining the explosive used. If they were patient enough they could have used match heads if they had enough of them and contained them well. I bet a case of crushed up sparklers would be surprisingly devastating. I imagine we will find out in time unless they decide the public doesn't need to know. If they don't say what it is that allows them to more easily ban whatever they want. Banning things never works because someone determined will always find a way. It might just take them a couple extra days. A trip to a pharmacy and hardware store could produce something substantially more powerful.

[AirCowPeacock]

I bet there's some really testing being done somewhere, and the idiots that run our country are just working off pure conjecture.

[NightHawkInLight]

No kidding. Good luck banning salt water and electricity, or copper oxide and aluminum, acetone, pressurized fuel/air... If you want to blow the snot out of something you're going to be able to do it.

[AirCowPeacock]

There truely is no way to ban explosives. Every attempt it futile.

[Arthur]

If you've ever seen concrete you can safely assume that it contained cement from rock mined by explosives! Could you ban concrete?

 

Maybe the captured bomber suspect will yield some information how, why and what the reason and device. Let's hope the guy can be questioned carefully to get the information before the cry for vengance becomes too loud.

[ollie1016]

Has anyone got any estimates of how much explosives there were for the first explosion? ( presuming that the explosive was black powder) I've never seen more than 1kg of black powder explode and that was rather large!

[dan999ification]

You don't get a shock wave under its critical mass so well below that, if it was a pressure cooker or a small Autoclave I'd imagine under 10k would fill it.

 

I doubt it was bp I saw yellowish orange smoke as well as the white, also some red light in the smoke made me think " reactive targets" straight away.

 

Dan.

[Bobosan]

Dan, do you mean Tannerite type compounds? I thought about that too.

 

Here's what happening in Indiana over Tannerite;

 

http://www.wthr.com/...rous-explosives

 

A week later this article appeared;

 

http://www.wthr.com/...for-regulations

[tangent]

You don't get a shock wave under its critical mass so well below that, if it was a pressure cooker or a small Autoclave I'd imagine under 10k would fill it.

 

I doubt it was bp I saw yellowish orange smoke as well as the white, also some red light in the smoke made me think " reactive targets" straight away.

 

Dan.

 

These came up in my search..

 

FBI Warned in March That ‘Exploding Targets’ Could Fuel Homemade Bombs

 

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/04/tannerite/

 

Interesting timing...

 

Countering Improvised Explosive Devices

Feb 26th, 2013

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/cied_1.pdf

(U//FOUO) Exploding Targets : Potential Use as Explosives in IEDs and Alternative Source of Ammonium Nitrate

http://info.publicintelligence.net/FBI-ExplodingTargets.pdf

 

FBI Letter Warns of Fertilizer Purchases for Explosives

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-sends-letter-warning-fertilizer-purchases-explosives/story?id=12991048

 

FBI Letter:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/page?id=12992118

 

'Tripwires' Can Spot Would-Be Bombers

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324345804578425483373542340.html

 

I also found reference to this program being called "Trapwire". It seems like they are looking for purchases of large quantities, busts of 3 and 12 tons were mentioned. Still, I got questioned once by a garden shop owner over my purchase of a single pound of sulfur (for the blight on my strawberries, not pyro) and a year later went in to a ranch supply store, showed them the soil test report and got taken over and told I wanted a 50LB bag of this stuff! 34.0.0 I didn't know what I had till I got home and looked it up...

 

Anyway, does anyone shop at farm supply, etc. stores for pyro chems and have you run into this?

 

-t

[dan999ification]

That's exactly what I'm saying, no names of course but its not hard to have a few friends buy the legal limit and combine it.

 

I saw on YouTube recently how well one company was doing, tens of pallets per week.

 

Dan.

[FlaMtnBkr]

I've shot a lot of targets and never seen orangish smoke. I've watched a lot of videos as well and haven't seen it. Reactive targets are an HE and just about all reports think it was an LE. A reactive target would require a detonator and most likely a booster. It would make them more difficult to use than other off the shelf items. Plus there is still the apparent lack of a shock wave.

[pyrojig]

Sadly it only takes one idiot to ruin a fun thing.

[NightHawkInLight]

Sadly it only takes one idiot to ruin a fun thing.

No, it takes at least two. The first idiot to hurt somebody, and an elected idiot that thinks it could have been prevented with paperwork. Also the millions of idiots that elect those idiots.

[Bcorso85]

When I got the fox news alert at 3 pm I was already praying to God it was a gas leak. Five minutes later I knew it was a bomb. When I heard a pressure cooker was used I was really praying to God pyro chemicals were not used like the unibomber did. All I need is a ban on my life passion. Then fox news got a video ground level andclose to the first explosion. You can clearly see a shock wave ripple through the air, and blow the flags like wind. The pressure cooker makes us all think of low explosives aided by a serious confinment. But by looking at that shock wave it has to be high explosive. And we know it was detonated with a radio found on a rc car. We also known that during the car chase, they were throwing 'military grade explosives' at police. I don't think all queda or any terrorist would use gun powder, when they are trying to kill as many innocents as possible. These facts added together all point towards something much more energenic.

However, i know that politicians will use any tragety to push their agenda and make anything illegal. I live in Ct 20 minutes away from the Newtown shooting. They have taken away some of my rights because of this. I can keep my 30 round 223 mags, but can only put 10 rounds in it. All acknowledge that these laws making dozens of long guns now illegal, do nothing, and would hae done nothing to prevent a tragety like this. I suspect our leaders will call for no more this and no more that. No more pressure cookers, no more rc cars, no more individual freedoms in the name of "feeling secure"

[NightHawkInLight]

Who comes up with this stuff? You can keep your 30 round mags, but they tell you that you can only use them for 10 why exactly? What scenario could even the most liberal mind possibly dream up in which telling a shooter that they were only allowed to load 10 rounds into their 30 round mag would cause them even a minor inconvenience? Whoever proposes such things should be ashamed of themselves for taking advantage of tragedy to push such an entirely unrelated agenda of limiting non criminal's gun use. It couldn't be more obvious that criminals were not the target. Edited April 22, 2013 by NightHawkInLight

[pyrojig]

No, it takes at least two. The first idiot to hurt somebody, and an elected idiot that thinks it could have been prevented with paperwork. Also the millions of idiots that elect those idiots.

 

LOL you said it in a nut shell!!

[Bcorso85]

I know, imagine living here. Gun owners like myself are being taught to be ashamed of ourselves for taking advantage of our rights. There is a huge ban now passed on medium guns...leaving the large caliber hunting rifles on the shelves, but the medium size guns are gone do to the fact they are 'ultra powerful'

Complete stupidity, and will not stop another theft of a gun to be used in the crime. The newtown shoot and columbine used stolen guns, gun owners are being punished as they've obeyed they laws