"Singing" rockets

[BurritoBandito]

In a different thread (the list of pyro chemicals and terms). Two forum members were discussing the idea that an array of whistle mix rockets could, in theory, be made to play a song. Has anyone ever tried this? What method did you use to vary the pitch of the whistle (composition, ID) and what level of success did you have?

 

[NightHawkInLight]

I heard it's been done, but well before I was around to see it. We did a drumline with salutes a few years back varying the size, shape and comp with a lot of trial and error involved to find the right tones, but tuning whistle would take good deal more precision. If I were trying it I would do my best to find a way to change the pitch by only adjusting one variable. If you're changing the tube diameter, length, and the comp to find just one note you'll be at it for years. Keeping the same diameter tube you should be able to change the pitch by adjusting the tube length alone, using the same amount of comp at the bottom. I think that would be the easiest variable to control consistently, without needing rare tube ID's or risking minor changes in multiple batches of comp throwing things out of tune. The same ID ought to be able to produce a fair range with only adjustments in length, and perhaps if you must go higher or lower bring in a secondary ID that can be shortened or lengthened to produce notes in the different range.

[BurritoBandito]

Adjusting the length wouldn't cut it since it is already changing while the grain is burning. The inner diameter is probably a better bet, though it may limit you to just an octave or two... The salute percussion line is a cool idea too. Hadn't even considered that one. Maybe with enough experimenting a full song could be arranged. Seems a bit advanced for me but I'd love to see someone tackle it. Maybe one day...

[NightHawkInLight]

It will work. The pitch will deepen over the course of the burn so the grain would have to be made rather short for a single in tune note unless going out of pitch is acceptable. That will be the case no matter what method you use to change the pitch. Changing the ID rather than lengthening the tube will do nothing to avoid that problem.

 

I would probably go about it by making a whole bunch of short grains in the same short tube size so they could be mass produced all at once, then adjust the pitch of each by slipping the specified lengths of tubes over the outside for each note later on. Something like this:

Edited April 12, 2013 by NightHawkInLight

[BurritoBandito]

I know but you could allow for the pitch lowering due to the grain burning and as long as it was consistent from rocket to rocket it would still sound okay, prolly much like someone playing guitar and using the Whammy bar to drop the pitch of each note (Steve via sometimes does this... Check out "Burning Rain" for an example). The ID would just allow you to have the desired starting notes be correct. Honestly length would prolly work just as well, except that you would lose the ability to control the duration of each "slide" in exchange for pitch control. Using ID for pitch would allow you to somewhat control the notes duration with the length. Edited April 12, 2013 by BurritoBandito

[NightHawkInLight]

It doesn't make a difference one way or the other, the result will be the same. The note will be correct at the start and then get lower, whether you made that note by changing the ID or the length of the tube. It will be the exact same result. Changing the ID would simply be the more expensive and much more complicated route to adjust correctly.

[BurritoBandito]

I'm sure you know more about the topic than me. I'm just kicking around ideas.

[Mumbles]

There was an interesting article written on this subject once. It's by Selcuk Oztap and appears in Pyrotechnica XI and XIII. He does some experimentation with changing tones based on tube ID and length. It might be worth a purchase if you're interested in pursuing this.

 

I don't think the tone changing much is going to be that big of an issue. To really play a song, you're going to want most notes to last for only a fraction of a second anyway, which is going to require a relatively small amount of whistle mix. It really wont have time for the tube length to change any dramatic amount.

[BurritoBandito]

Thanks. I'll look into that book if I do actually pursue this idea. It probably won't be for a while though.

[nater]

Years ago they made a calliope out of whistles as the PGI. I was not there to see in person and certainly could not do any better, but the results on video are underwhelming. It is certainly a suitable challenge.

 

[BurritoBandito]

I was actually fairly impressed with that lol... thanks for posting the video.

[AirCowPeacock]

I was impressed too. My friends thought it was obnoxious, of course.

 

I think one of the biggest issues there was poor timing, which, is of course really really difficult to do with even the best timefuse.

[BurritoBandito]

I would probably use ematches myself.

[Bobosan]

Not too bad.....it did become recognizable and then didn't. Damn good effort.

 

Agree with Burrito, e-matches would be warranted. It may have been e-matched. Nater?

[BurritoBandito]

I wasn't suggesting that they didn't. I don't know that but I definitely would, they most likely did too. I was just saying that in response to AirCowPeacock saying it would be hard to time the fuses.

[leedrill]

not the greatest effect from all the work but you have to say wow that was amazing you cant, not appreciate how hard that would be and how much work was put in to produce it and well on its way to being god damn amazing. thanks for posting nater

[nater]

I'm not trying to undermine their effort, like I said - I certainly could not do any better. It is hard enough to tune an instrument like an organ which is made out of static materials. Trying to duplicate that with pyrotechnics is damn near impossible.

 

I do not know how they fused it. In 1994, I was 12 years old and perfectly content lighting bottle rockets in my backyard. I had no clue things like the PGI even existed. I am guessing they used e-match, but I'm aware of how advanced firing systems were yet then.

[BurritoBandito]

NightHawkInLight... In retrospect I think you are right. It would definately be easier to mass produce a bunch of identical tube sizes (for each duration of note: one length for whole notes, one for half, quarters, ect...) then make a sort of sleeve to fit over them for pitch control. Then, as you said, the ID could be used to control the octave. Sorry if I came across as a know it all, that was not my intention. I was merely failing to see your logic on why it would be better to scale length than ID but now I see the <i>light</i>.

[Ferret]

To answer the question if it was e-matched: (from the comments on YouTube)

 

 

 

Royal A. Purdy 1 year ago

 

I was privileged enough to be asked to "fire" this computer driven show back in 1994 with Matt, Mike, Chuck and all the other involved Western Pennsylvania Skylighters group! Miss you all!

 

 

I imagine the main timing issue is the amount of time it actually takes the comp to light after the e-match goes off. It would be milliseconds, but it would vary for each whistle, which creates the noticeable timing issue. Priming wouldn't solve this issue any, as the prime would not fire consistently either. I'm not sure how you could solve this timing issue.

[BurritoBandito]

I'm sure you could correct the delays electronically by firing an ematch just a few milliseconds early. You could even use thermal or optical sensors to determine how prematurely to fire each ematch. It would be an expensive PITA but I bet someone with enough skill, knowledge, time, and patience could make a song with perfect timing, nail every pitch down to the hertz, and intentionally control the pitch drop as the composition burns to produce desired effects.

[nater]

We shoot shows with 1/1000 second accuracy using the FireOne. When you are dealing with timing that tight, close enough becomes good enough. Humans are wired to find patterns in things, and if you can recognize a pattern, you will think you are seeing / hearing it during a show. Even the length of the quick match is taken into consideration. When you script the show, it makes a difference if the ematch is inserted directly into the lift, a 3" long pigtail of QM, or a full length leader.

[dagabu]

I heard it's been done, but well before I was around to see it. We did a drumline with salutes a few years back varying the size, shape and comp with a lot of trial and error involved to find the right tones, but tuning whistle would take good deal more precision. If I were trying it I would do my best to find a way to change the pitch by only adjusting one variable. If you're changing the tube diameter, length, and the comp to find just one note you'll be at it for years. Keeping the same diameter tube you should be able to change the pitch by adjusting the tube length alone, using the same amount of comp at the bottom. I think that would be the easiest variable to control consistently, without needing rare tube ID's or risking minor changes in multiple batches of comp throwing things out of tune. The same ID ought to be able to produce a fair range with only adjustments in length, and perhaps if you must go higher or lower bring in a secondary ID that can be shortened or lengthened to produce notes in the different range.

 

The multi-tone whistles were made by the Northern Lighters in Amana Iowa the last time PGI took place there.

[BurritoBandito]

I would love to see one of you guys tackle it. I know it's a huge task, but it would be pretty damned cool. Once I build my skill level up a bit higher I plan on having a go at it.

[dagabu]

I was able to see the pictures of the set up and know the guys that put it together, they have some notes somewhere and I will catch up to them on Memorial day weekend. The setup was using all the same whistles inside different size and length PVC tubes. Once the notes are known, simple music writing software can be used to write out a song. Lots of work but pretty easy.

[nater]

That sounds much easier than making each whistle to produce a different tone

 

 

I think it sounds like a great project......for someone else. I would happily enjoy this one from the sidelines.