the end of the pyro hobbyist in europe ?

[ExplosiveCoek]

Unfortunately this law is going to be applied quite soon.

 

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2013:039:0001:01:NL:HTML

 

If you can't read Dutch, here's the translation:

 

"Dear firework hobbyists,

 

You're screwed, go f*ck yourself."

 

Well actually if you think about, who are we for telling them wrong? Our hobby IS extremely dangerous, and it's getting way too easy for noobs to get their hands on chemicals. Resulting in more demolitions etc etc.

 

Of course you can think that creating a club who's allowed to sell chemicals will be the solution, but it's not. Who's going to determine who's allowed to buy KClO4 and who's not? It's just impossible. Also making fireworks requires a certain dedication and a couple of stupid mistakes in the beginning before you're starting to understand what the hell you're doing. That's just becoming too problematic for the government, so let's ban it .

[TritonPyro]

Well as Mia said or thought, " screw them". They have done nothing for us except pass out ridiculous and bizarre rulings. If it does come to the crunch, then Britain will make its own ruling. Edited April 11, 2013 by TritonPyro

[Chuleo]

Of course this is a dangerous hobby so what? If you can choose between freedom and security what would you choose? (I would definitely choose freedom) I mean we are taken of our "free" will and we shouldn't let that happen.

[schroedinger]

This is allready around home chemistry scene in europe.

And the Video on page 1 misses out one of the biggest facts.

 

The whole thing is listed aus EU 98/2013

It lists three categories.

The 1, 12 Chemicals which aren`tallowed to be sold to general public without permission.

 

The way how a permission works is up to the State. They can give provide'em for max of 1 year, but even restrict down to 1 Order or just don`t allow them.

(In movie Annex 1)

 

Then there is the second categorie, whith thing which are allowed to be sold to the general public, but need to be traked. But also it`s marked that every State is also allowed to ban them generally.

(In movie Annex 2)

 

But the worst thing is the cat 3, which states that everything which is known to be ever used in explosives or as an precurser, is up to the state but is supposed to be banned and can be ordered to be watched

[mabuse00]

At the moment the new laws do not change very much.

 

In my country there is no legal pyro anyway and in those EU states where it's not explicitly forbidden people work in a legal twilight zone.

 

I think nobody can afford to persue his hobby overtly here.

 

If a kid in my country wants to retry the typical zinc/sulphur reaction often shown in school, it de jure ends up as a juvenile delinquent because of illegal handling of a pyrotechnic mixture. No matter if it's just a gramm in the test tube.

 

Also the situation is completely different than in the US, there are no structures like clubs or umbrella organisations. The only way most people even got the idea of doing it, gather information about it came with the broader spread of the internet.

 

And considering the chemicals that are about to be banned - right now it's either an enormous risk to buy them (we had large scale police raids on private chemical buyers in the past, where people even got in trouble for stuff like copper sulphate and standard acids where most victims where NOT pyros or hobbybombers) or simply impossible to get them - what allready applies for ALL oxidizers.

 

What most people did in the past was simply getting their stuff from the eastern EU countrys which joined the union in 2004, leaving borders without customs. This practice was illegal anyway, but until know they simply had little means to control it efficiently.

 

 

Another point of view is, that it becomes impossible for private people to pursue chemistry obove a certain level and smaller companies are affected by increasing burocracy. Thus one might argue that some sciences become restricted only to big companies (the puppet masters of the so called "experts" in the EU-Parliament) that already override democracy to a frightful extent.

Terrorist threat in europe is very low, the risk of beeing killed by a terrorist is zero compared to the risk of getting a heart attack due to stress at work. IMHO just an excuse.

Edited April 11, 2013 by mabuse00

[val77]

what bothers me, if i order chemicals is that the police come to me ...

[MrB]

Indeed life without acetone seems like a miserable one. And TATP doesn't really seem like a feasible explosive to me. Certainly it can and (has?) atleast been attempted to be used, but the sensitivity makes transportation exceedingly difficult and production in large quantities likely disastrous.

While i wouldn't suggest anyone be doing it, making large quantities, drying and storing really isn't a problem. Anyone needs TATP as much as they need a hole in the head, but sadly, i've been playing around with it, a lot, for years, until i got busted for my pyro activities.

 

Are there any other cites to what is happening in the EU other than this YouTube video? Our EU members seem to be reacting as if they knew nothing about this when surely they must have heard about forthcoming regulations at some point other than now.

This has been coming for a while, and i've known it to be a reality for at least 6 months. It's not coming as a shock. I know people like to blame it on ABB, the Norwegian terrorist, but the fact is, he's not affected by EU legislation at all, and this was in the works before he blew up the streets of Oslo, and shoot a bunch of kids. It's simply the nanny called "EU" that feels it has to "make sure you don't hurt your self" and keeps invading on our rights, and abilities.

 

B!

[Bobosan]

......."I know people like to blame it on ABB, the Norwegian terrorist, but the fact is, he's not affected by EU legislation at all, and this was in the works before he blew up the streets of Oslo, and shoot a bunch of kids. It's simply the nanny called "EU" that feels it has to "make sure you don't hurt your self" and keeps invading on our rights, and abilities."

 

B!

 

Yes, the same principle is currently being applied in US over firearms. My dad always said "locks are for honest people. A thief will always find a hacksaw or bolt cutter"

[Algenco]

there going about in a backdoor manner in the US.

AN is hard to get because the Govt claims meth heads are using it to make ammonia but farmers still use anhydrous ammonia?

KNO3 is getting harder to find due to increasing pressure on fert companies, most won't order it now

[taiwanluthiers]

Pyro is on hold for me now, there's nobody shooting anything and when you're the only one shooting, you stick out like a sore thumb.

 

I am going to blow through my current stock of chemicals and stop as soon as I run out, no resupplys or anything. It seems it's treading legal hot water whenever pyrotechnic is involved, and when someone does something bad (like putting explosive devices on a high speed train causing evacuations), it makes people paranoid.

 

No, I won't sell or give excess chemicals away either... it's hard to know what could happen. Taiwan is pretty liberal with firework regulations but Freakydutchman said that about his country too, so who knows what could happen.

[Peret]

If the government treats you like children it's because the people voted for those who believe that people should be treated like children

 

Not so any more in Europe. As I pointed out in a post on Passfire, this is a Directive, not a law. It comes from the EU Commission, and nobody voted for them - NOBODY. I don't even know who appoints them. The Directives go to the EU Parliament for the rubber stamp, and then it becomes legally binding on national governments that have no choice but to obey and create the laws, whatever their people think about it. The EU is not a democracy, it's a despotism. Mia has it right - if you want your country to be free and democratic, you have to leave.

 

I know of only one time in the history of the EU when the European Parliament disobeyed a Directive - in 2011 they refused to ratify the ACTA treaty.

[taiwanluthiers]

So what business does the EU have to tell them how to run their own country? Do they even have national sovereignty for being in the EU, or is this the creation of a new country called the "EU" and each "countries" are now "states"?

 

It feels like the USA, in the beginning it was just a united states, and now the Federal government just becomes a super government that tells each State what they can or can't do.

[MrB]

Do they even have national sovereignty for being in the EU, or is this the creation of a new country called the "EU" and each "countries" are now "states"?

Pretty much, yes. More and more power is transfered away from the nation and in to the body of "EU" and this is nothing new, it's been this way by design, all from the start. There is a reason some people call it the third attempt for the "Third Reich", and claiming that it's the most successful attempt so far.

B!

[taiwanluthiers]

What's next, the removal of "undesirable elements" from the society?

[MrB]

Not to be mean or anything, but you need to get yourself updated. The undesired people is already removed from society. Retirement is next to living death by now, and not only are they pushing to make you retier later in life, but when you do finally retire, should you be lucky and live long enough, your monthly check from the state isn't large enough to actually get buy on. It's the states way of telling you "just die already". Sure, they could legalize "death help", and start enforcing a policy of a maximum occupancy in the retirement homes, but they are trying to be a bit less obvious. Trying, not getting away with it.

 

B!

[ExplosiveCoek]

Of course this is a dangerous hobby so what? If you can choose between freedom and security what would you choose? (I would definitely choose freedom) I mean we are taken of our "free" will and we shouldn't let that happen.

 

So why did you quit pyro exactly?

[Mia]

Well as Mia said or thought, " screw them". They have done nothing for us except pass out ridiculous and bizarre rulings. If it does come to the crunch, then Britain will make its own ruling.

Triton all the time we have a pound in our pocket and not a euro I won’t worry too much.

[Peret]

So what business does the EU have to tell them how to run their own country? Do they even have national sovereignty for being in the EU, or is this the creation of a new country called the "EU" and each "countries" are now "states"?

 

It feels like the USA, in the beginning it was just a united states, and now the Federal government just becomes a super government that tells each State what they can or can't do.

 

It's not like the United States - not even slightly. The USA Federal Government is constrained by the Constitution, in particular: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The EU treaties have no such safeguards and the "states" - the individual member nations - are completely subservient.

 

The EU was originally set up as the "European Economic Community", aka "Common Market", as a free trade area under the Treaty of Rome. Its main purpose seems to have been to support farm prices (see below). It's been amended by later treaties - Maastricht, Lisbon etc - towards a more political union. Having been designed in the first place by civil service bureaucrats, many of them French, it should hardly be surprising that it consists now of arbitrary rule by a great constipation of bureaucrats in Brussels who are utterly deaf to the public. It could in theory be controlled by the European Parliament, except that the Parliament has no party blocs, consisting as it does of a dozen or so members from each of 20 countries, most of whom don't communicate because they speak different languages, and if they could, wouldn't find much in common to agree on. The main characteristic of Euro MPs is that they are extremely well paid and expensed and therefore don't have much motivation to change anything.

 

On supporting farm prices: Suppose butter sold for $1 a pound, and the farmers' lobbyists said they needed $2 to stay in business. The authorities could take tax money and pay the farmers $1 a pound to keep selling it to the public at the same price. This is pretty much what happens in America and elsewhere in the world. Joe Public pays $2 a pound, but half of that is hidden so he still buys butter at $1. What they did in the EU was buy all the butter the farms could produce at $2, using tax money, then put it in cold storage, also paid for with tax money, then try to sell it to the public for $2 a pound. Joe Public was therefore paying over $2 a pound before he even got to the grocery store, and not surprisingly developed a taste for margarine. The farmers, never having had it so good, ramped up butter production to record levels. The cold storage companies did all right too. Eventually, the EU sold the enormous butter mountain for a few cents a pound to non-EU countries, thus destroying those countries' dairy farmers.

 

This didn't just happen with butter, it happened over and over again with every kind of farm produce. These are the incompetent bureaucrats now deciding what color trash cans you must use for newspaper, and which for eggshells. You would think the national politicians would have learned, instead of going deeper and deeper. I wonder which will be the first country to leave, and what will happen.

[ollie1016]

People , might want to read this. It's about the sanctions that are enforced in the UK . http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/explosives/#a02

[taiwanluthiers]

So can you be more specific as to how this pertains to hobbyist pyros? Most of the stuff in there covers using explosives with the intent to cause harm or death, or reckless use of explosives causing damage. Where does it say "home manufacture of explosives are illegal and criminal"? It mostly says that making explosives with the intent of causing harm is an offense.

 

Perhaps some highlight on how things may be interpreted.

[AirCowPeacock]

From what I understand, risk of damages even through recklessness is a serious offense. I'm sure any sort of unlincensed hobby pyrotechnics will be seen as risking damages or injury.

[taiwanluthiers]

It depends on how the local authorities interpret the law, almost every country would have laws like that but your experience could vary a lot depending on how "making fireworks for fun" is interpreted. It sounds like you would only get in trouble if property damage/injuries resulted.

[NewPyro34]

I have my doubts they will let it end