wood ballmill? How cool is that.

[MrB]

I just wanted to make a comment on the ball mills shown in a videoclip linked to in a post, in the "BP tutorial" thread", by Raplh. Since it wasn't quite right to start posting about it in there, i made a new thread here.

 

at 3.40-3.50 in the video we have 2 ball mills in a Spanish black powder factory

 

So, i'm not entirely sure i like the idea of using wood barrels as jars, due to the inevitable risk of explosion, but i notice that they also use wooden balls. I realize they use pre-milled components, and the wooden mills here are pretty much just "mixing it", but thats somewhat besides the point. I'm just amazed it works... Not that i think it's going to happen anytime soon, but, how viable would wood balls be in "our" mills? I'm thinking they are to light to be real useful.

 

What other ancient production tech is there out there related to the pyro industry, that i know nothing about? Anyone knows, and wants to share?

B!

[AlexPyro66]

In Greece we were using a large wooden plate and the ingredients were pressed with huge round rocks powered by water Edited January 22, 2013 by AlexPyro66

[MrB]

Were? I take it you don't have access, or that the thing is no longer there? I'm not sure i understand how this worked, and would have loved a few pictures. Human ingenuity is amazing.

B!

[Potassiumchlorate]

Like this MrB

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

That's called a molatta in Itally and Malta, if I remember correctly. This machine is still used nowadays in Malta for the production of black powder.

[dan999ification]

the wooden ball mill should be quite efficient, not just mixing, the balls could weigh upto or over a kilo and falling from that height will have more impact energy than hobby mills.

some chinese factories ''cook' wet bp in what looks like a paella pan until it stops steaming, then edge/wheel mill it, i will try to find the video.

i cant upload from my phone but......charcoal making safi way? ( youtube ) will suprise some.

I make mine in an open top drum but kept it a secret due to the possible critisism and subsequent explanations.

 

Mr b: have you seen the whole documantary? The last part shows a shockwave produced by bp ( i do not claim bp detonates ) Been in my favourites 2 years.

 

Dan.

Edited January 23, 2013 by dan999ification

[Mumbles]

The mill I've seen from Malta looks a lot like the ones in the video that Ralph posted. A large, but fairly standard ball mill. They're probably very little more than wine barrels filled with media.

[dan999ification]

they mostly use grapevine charcoal, makes sense to use the empty wine barrels as mill jars i suppose.

 

Dan.

[MrB]

Like this MrB

Oh, hot damn. That thing looks... mean. Means business. I suppose it has to turn fairly slow to keep the dust down, but with all that weight it should be really effective, and you could swoop in, scoop a bit out, and poor in new stuff while it keeps turning. That is, you could, i'd be afraid to, wanting to keep my fingers. (See how i would have been a perfect company owner back in the 1700, or so?)

This machine is still used nowadays in Malta for the production of black powder.

I've said it before. Them Maltans are crazy. But it's way cool.

 

the wooden ball mill should be quite efficient, not just mixing, the balls could weigh upto or over a kilo and falling from that height will have more impact energy than hobby mills.

It would also have a thicker layer of powder when it lands, and a larger area. For the same size, lead would be a lot more effective, or put the other way, loading our ball-mills with wood balls wont be much useful. But your right, now that you say it, the wooden balls in these drums may be more efficient then i first thought.

 

some chinese factories ''cook' wet bp in what looks like a paella pan until it stops steaming, then edge/wheel mill it, i will try to find the video.

Please do, this sounds like a variant of the CIA BP process, and, might i add, not one i'd recommend anyone doing at home. *Cooking BP untill it stops steaming - looks away - hear explosion - see a bright white light in the end of the tunnel* But even if i wouldn't do it, it's interesting to see / read about.

 

i cant upload from my phone but......charcoal making safi way? ( youtube ) will suprise some.

I make mine in an open top drum but kept it a secret due to the possible critisism and subsequent explanations.

Now, thats cool. I can see how it works, but i'm thinking it should be harder to get a consistent result, and you are likely to get a higher ash content. The consistency should come with practice, timing and constant managing of the heat i guess. But i'm not sure if there is a whole lot they can do about the ash content?

 

Mr b: have you seen the whole documantary? The last part shows a shockwave produced by bp ( i do not claim bp detonates ) Been in my favourites 2 years.

Yeah, it did a frightfull amount of damage for a deflagration burn. And you can really see the shockwave as it moves out in the video. I suppose it's not as clean as a detonation shockwave, but for what it's worth, its a true peak in pressure, and it wasted a bunch of cameras in enclosures supposedly made to take it... I just had to find the first clip in the series, and watched the whole thing from there. It was an easy find, so i imagine it got a lot of new views.

 

The mill I've seen from Malta looks a lot like the ones in the video that Ralph posted. A large, but fairly standard ball mill. They're probably very little more than wine barrels filled with media.

I'm not going to jump to any conclusions about empty wine barrels, and crazy behavior, although wine consumption has been linked with behavioral changes. Instead i'm going to jump to a question slightly more on topic. What media did they use in said mills? (Yeah, i tired to be funny. It became so much text i had to do something. Sorry.)

 

Thank you guys so much for humoring me. Admittedly, i find this interesting, even if it's more useless knowledge that I'll never really get to show of in a game of trivial pursuit.

B!

[dan999ification]

yes there is quite a bit of ash with this maltese method, at least a few percent, dont know how that affects h3 but bp would suffer for sure, i wait until the flame stops jetting ( goes under the rim ) no air can get in the charcoal while the drum is in the fire and producing gasses, there are still usable volatiles in the charcoal if timed well.

 

There are a few woods that spheres this size would weigh over a kilo, still ten times lighter than lead, you need a very torquey motor for lead in this size or water/wind power which is more likely a hundred or more years ago, wood is also free/cheap.

 

I just love the part where sydney ''tastes'' the sulphur for acidity in the video.

 

Dan.

[Mumbles]

The pictures I have don't show media. I'm unsure what they use. I mean, you hear all sorts of rumors, but nothing definitive. The factory I worked at which made about 25lbs at a time, which is small compared to some of these things. They used ceramic there. For the size, lead is prohibitively heavy due to how everything is made. These fixed jars wouldn't be held to the same constraints.

 

Dan, do you realize how much ash is in any normal charcoal? Extremely hot charcoal is 4-6%. Commercial airfloat can be 20% or more. External ash on the wood that would probably result from the "Safi method" really isn't a problem as it can easily be brushed off.

[Blackthumb]

My first 'tumbler' was made of 7/8" oak...octcgonal...made in 1970 for tumbling brass with media. I have used it for charcoal many times with lead or steel bearings. MAkes great 'airfloat'. Now use it with a hdpe jar inside to mill BP.

[MrB]

There are a few woods that spheres this size would weigh over a kilo, still ten times lighter than lead, you need a very torquey motor for lead in this size or water/wind power which is more likely a hundred or more years ago, wood is also free/cheap.

Weight might have been an issue, but perhaps more likely is availability & price. Either way, it's creative, and regardless of if i think it's efficient or not, it works, and has done so for hundreds of years. I'll side with empirical evidence over my "logic" train of thought, and say wood does just fine.

 

I just love the part where sydney ''tastes'' the sulphur for acidity in the video.

I think Sydney is Sidney Alford. Crazy old fart, and pretty much everything but a rocket scientist. Holds a number of patents for creative use of plastic explosives as shape-charges to disarm IED's, and stuff like that. Works a lot with plastic explosives and plastic containers filled with water, making the "system" easily portable, and lightweight. Well, until you pour the water in to it. Seen a few demos, from some "future weapons" episode on the TV. (I think it was, at least. It's been a while.) While Sidney comes of as a fairly crazy fella, he really does seam to know what he's doing. I love to see him work, but sadly, there isn't that much to see, it seams.

 

Dan, do you realize how much ash is in any normal charcoal? Extremely hot charcoal is 4-6%. Commercial airfloat can be 20% or more. External ash on the wood that would probably result from the "Safi method" really isn't a problem as it can easily be brushed off.

All i know is "less is supposedly more" in this case. If it's the white stuff, then you can easily see it, and clean it of with some small effort. But i didn't know airfloat can be 20% ash. It sort of suggests the ash-content isn't that big an issue as i was thinking either.

 

Cool, i'm learning. I was thinking i started a fairly useless thread about pretty much obsolete production equipments, and it turns out i opened a classroom, and filled it with teachers, now i just got to sit here and absorb.

B!

Edited January 23, 2013 by MrB

[dan999ification]

Edited January 23, 2013 by dan999ification

[pyrogeorge]

Like this MrB

Not like this.

Here some photos of Greek mills.

http://agro.in.gr/files/1/Media/2010/07/21/%CE%9F%20%CE%9C%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%84%CF%8C%CE%BC%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82.JPG

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/40001162.jpg

http://content-mcdn.ethnos.gr/filesystem/images/20110530/engine/assets_LARGE_t_420_46441550_type12128.jpg

http://www.astrosparalio.gr/uploads/idromilos_dimitsanas.jpg

http://assets.in.gr/dGenesis/assets/Content200/Photo/05.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-I3zpMiJp2wY/T33vHIlK5NI/AAAAAAAAAhc/MYlUx5gCXNk/s1600/Slide05.jpg

http://assets.in.gr/dGenesis/assets/Content200/Photo/s-08.jpg

http://v4.cache7.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/18439539.jpg?redirect_counter=2

 

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http://www.touristorama.com/assets/images/articles/nero_kinei_ta_panta/nero_kinei_ta_panta.jpg

[AirCowPeacock]

Neat.

[Potassiumchlorate]

Yes, the Greek mill was different for sure. Nice landscape too

[Bobosan]

Not sure I'm understanding the mechanics of the Greek mill. Do the vertical wood beams pulverize the chemicals in the wells or are they part of the water drive mechanism for the large drum?

[Col]

Looks like the vertical beams are lifted and dropped into the holes on the bottom as the big square shaft attached to the drum rotates.

Its like a big wooden engine with camshaft and pistons

Edited January 26, 2013 by Col

[AirCowPeacock]

There's probably an attendant shoving the powder that falls out back into the hole

[pyrogeorge]

Not sure I'm understanding the mechanics of the Greek mill. Do the vertical wood beams pulverize the chemicals in the wells or are they part of the water drive mechanism for the large drum?

The large drum gives the action to the vertical woods and pulverize the chemicals.

Edited January 26, 2013 by pyrogeorge

[Bobosan]

wow....pretty interesting and quite a noisy operation. Rotating jar ball milling is just as noisy though.

[Potassiumchlorate]

Those Greeks are smart. Remember that they actually invented the steam engine several thousand years before James Watt was born