platinum coin/bullion for use in perchlorate production?

[NightHawkInLight]

where can I buy platinum bullion without such a high minimum order? all the metal brokers I have seen has a minimum order of 5 ounces of metal... I do not need that much.

Ebay is where I saw quite a few single gram bars for sale.

[taiwanluthiers]

There hasn't been any lately... all they had was test kits. It's definitely less available compared to gold or silver...

[a_bab]

taiwanluthiers, here are my thoughs:

 

1. Platinum while a noble metal, is in fact fairly reactive in certain conditions, especially at high temps. A lab tech will know what he can't do with the precious Pt labware: heating it in reductive flame, using it in conditions where hydrogen or halogens are generated and so on. My point is: you may see your Pd dissolve on you and never be able to recover it back.

Things like "rewin it and remelt it" are just dreams when dealing with such small amounts. It can be done, with some looses, but I'm afraid it will cost you many grams to master the Pt recovery.

 

2. Pt clad Ti anodes are not that difficult to make, but certain temperature conditions are needed. Basically one paints the anode with a Pt salts solution, then burns the anode into an oven with well controlled temps cycles. This is done several times, and very little Pt is used. I can dig up a doc detailing the procedure.

 

I now see you'd rather need the anode for perc - the reason Ti won't work is the amperage needed to make the perc. The truth is, the anode does errode over the time. Even the industry knows this. I can find out from the literature how many grams of Pt/ton of perc is lost.

 

There is a well known chemical way of making perc: high temp chlorate decomposition. If everything goes well, a realistic yeild can be as high as 50-55% (66% theoretical). The residue is nothing but KCl, that can be reused for chlorate production. Again, I can detail a verified lab procedure that works.

 

3. This is no way an attempt to encourage chlorate use, but there are many who do it. Know your devil and you'll be fine, follow the rules and you'll be safe®. One of the rules when using chlorates known by few is to NEVER dry chlorate stars directly under the sun. Chlorate decomposes due to the UV radiation but that's another story.

Edited January 29, 2013 by a_bab

[Potassiumchlorate]

You can dry chlorate stars outdoors in the shadow on a hot summer day, though. No problems.

[taiwanluthiers]

Thanks for the long detailed post. I have been wanting to make percs because there aren't a lot of bright color chlorate formula, that doesn't burn extremely fast which makes it unsuitable for smaller shells. I like metal fueled formula because of its brightness except when low temps are needed (such as blue/purple), in which case chlorate is king in that regard. I wish there's a chlorate formula out there that burns slower so I can use smaller stars, not resulting in very sparse shells. I tried Buell red using chlorate and perchlorate, and the result was not good. It wasn't very red at all and it left a lot of ash.

 

As for thermal decomposition of chlorate into perchlorate, I've read it's actually harder to do than electrolysis because you're dealing with molten chlorate which is dangerous, and it must be held at a specific temperature at a specific time. I'll try it if I've seen someone do it.

[Potassiumchlorate]

If you use shellac with chlorate, it will burn considerably slower than with red gum.

[frank]

The bullion idea is a sure bet.

One gram pieces of Pt seem to run at a price of 80 dollars on ebay.

They measure roughly (as stated by seller) 10mm by 20mm. 4 CM square surface area.

If you manage to beat the thing so that its surface area is 6cm square (should be easy to do)

and run at 320ma per CM squared you have a 2 amps anode.

This does not sound alot. At 2 amps you can make around 120 grams of sodium perchlorate

per day from sodium chlorate (not chloride). Thats close to a kg per week.

You can simply attach Ti to the Pt as explained in another thread by pdfbq. I would suggest you

go to the trouble of making a Ti bolt to clamp the (split?) Ti rod runner to the Pt.

 

Platinum is maleable. Not as good as gold but it should be easy enough to make the 1g

piece thinner and have more usable surface. Use a clean anvil (piece of railway rail would

be good) and a hammer with a rounded end. Take your time. A few hours work perhaps.

www.platinumguild.com/files/pdf/V2N1W_the_supply_of.pdf

 

If you want a real man's anode you can always purchase a platinum platypus.!!!!!!!!

[taiwanluthiers]

I have been searching high and low for a one gram platinum bullion, so far no seller has been offering them. All I have seen so far is a watch with a gram bullion inside, selling for over 200 dollars. I thought I could buy a single gram from precious metal online dealers, but they have a minimum order of like 2000 dollars... I don't need that much precious metal so far. Obviously they are more about investing a large quantity of cash...

[Arthur]

There is a reason why platinum shouldn't be too thin - volts drop

There were cells using a short Pt wire in a glass pinch. If the current was turned up the volts drop along the Pt wire caused the bit near the connection to erode and eventually the wire broke.

Using a Pt clad electrode MAY reduce these losses.

[frank]

I have never seen a platinum clad electrode for sale, at least to the amateur community. It would cost a fortune imo.

Most platinum clad anodes are a few feet long anyways. (big manufacturers only).

Platinum clad anodes are not the same as platinum plated anode(some microns of platinum on valve metal). The plated

anode are easy enough to get and are relatively cheap as they dont have much platinum. The clad anodes usually have a few mm

of platinum 'clad' onto copper. I dont know how the cladding proecss is done. Its a sheet or perhaps tube of platinum squeezed

onto a rod of copper and sealed (welded?) at the bottom. The copper makes a great connection.

 

I am not too sure what the thickness of the 1 gram pieces are but it would be thick enough to carry a few amps of current.

The ratio of width to length is very large (compared to wire) and there shoud be no problem with heating etc unless the user

takes the hammering to extremes.

Cell makers have used pieces of Pt wire a few inches long, very small width to length ratio, or if you like

far too small cross-section-of-Pt-wire to area-of-platinum-in-cell and ran them at silly currents that were totally unsuitable

for the thickness-of-wire to area-in-electrolyte ratio used.

 

One gram pieces of pt can be had on ebay ten a penny. (well about 80 dollors actually!).

http://www.ebay.com/...=item337815f948

 

Search for: one gram platinum bullion all ebays have them.

 

Go for the platinum platypus

http://www.ebay.com/...=item337815f948

It would take a lot of beating (with the hammer!!!!!!)

 

Regarding Pt wear. The figures going around for industry is approximately one quarter to a half gram of Pt loss

per ton perchlorate produced.

You should have a few hundred kg made before wear starts to be a problem even if you are not running the cell

at max. eff. or min. erosion. Keep chloride out. You will of course be starting from chlorate (not chloride).

 

edit:

Hurry up and buy the blooming thing so you can tell us all about it.

Edited February 7, 2013 by frank

[taiwanluthiers]

That seller won't ship to Taiwan... says "ships worldwide" and a HUGE list of exclusions.

 

I don't know how you searched but when I clicked on category for platinum or palladium bars, it comes up empty.

[NightHawkInLight]

Do a real search, don't click on a category. They might not be listed in the right area.

[pyrojig]

I believe that industry uses a salt of the metal platinum to attach it to the gate ( or valve metal) by the means of electroplating . It seems that for an amateur, stamped metal would result in a lot of waste, and time.

[NightHawkInLight]

Why do you say there would be waste? As for time, it wouldn't take long, and if it did, I think that's one thing most hobbyists don't care much about when they've got a project on their mind.

[frank]

Sorry forgot you were in Taiwan.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-Gram-Platinum-Pt-Bar-Credit-Suisse-assay-999-fine-bullion-Sealed-Plastic-/300852849383?pt=Bullion_US&hash=item460c3a2ae7

 

This seller seems to be willing to sent to Taiwan. Its 90 dollars + 45 dollars for postabe. A bit pricy.

You also have your own customs to worry about? Are they inclined to snoop?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PT-Precious-Metal-1-GRAM-ACB-PLATINUM-SOLID-BULLION-MINTED-BAR-99-9-FINE-/140912742666?pt=Bullion_US&hash=item20cf0dd10a

 

Try contacting this seller:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ACB-5-GRAIN-SOLID-Platinum-BULLION-MINTED-BAR-99-9-Pure-PT-/140910644372?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ceedcc94

 

Go to www.ebay.com

 

Type in "one gram platinum bullion" to the search box.

If hits are not coming up your government must be blocking comms???????????

 

 

 

Try some local pawn shops, jewellery shops etc as they might sell one gram bars. They will probably be more expensive that

the 80 dollars as per ebay (that guy wont ship to Taiwan though).

 

I tried http://www.ebay.com.au/ (ebay australia). It's amazing that there in not a single (that I can see) piece of platinum (big or

small) being sold from Australia. All are from USA! WTF!!

 

 

Next up ebay germany www.ebay.de

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/1-Gramm-Platin-Platinbarren-99-9-1g-Platinum-Barren-NEU-/320965031103?pt=M%C3%BCnzen_Medaillen&hash=item4abb01b4bf

 

put "platinum 1 gram" into search box.

 

 

What is a 'gate' (making clad platinum anodes). Do you mean the copper central conductor?

[WSM]

I believe that industry uses a salt of the metal platinum to attach it to the gate ( or valve metal) by the means of electroplating . It seems that for an amateur, stamped metal would result in a lot of waste, and time.

 

I believe the 1g. Pt bullion can be flattened to foil (careful, your investment could blow away in the wind!) and spot-welded to a CP titanium frame. Such an electrode would certainly prove the concept. Whether it would last or make much perchlorate depends on many variables, but I think so if one does his or her homework and minds the whole setup, success awaits...

 

WSM

[WSM]

Sorry forgot you were in Taiwan.

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item460c3a2ae7

This seller seems to be willing to sent to Taiwan. Its 90 dollars + 45 dollars for postabe. A bit pricy.

You also have your own customs to worry about? Are they inclined to snoop?

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item20cf0dd10a

Try contacting this seller:

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item20ceedcc94

Go to www.ebay.com

Type in "one gram platinum bullion" to the search box.

If hits are not coming up your government must be blocking comms???????????

Try some local pawn shops, jewellery shops etc as they might sell one gram bars. They will probably be more expensive that

the 80 dollars as per ebay (that guy wont ship to Taiwan though).

I tried http://www.ebay.com.au/ (ebay australia). It's amazing that there in not a single (that I can see) piece of platinum (big or

small) being sold from Australia. All are from USA! WTF!!

Next up ebay germany www.ebay.de

http://www.ebay.de/i...=item4abb01b4bf

put "platinum 1 gram" into search box.

What is a 'gate' (making clad platinum anodes). Do you mean the copper central conductor?

 

I get the impression he's referring to a "valve metal" foundation (i.e., titanium).

 

WSM

[taiwanluthiers]

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=platinum+bullion+gram&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=platinum+1+gram&_sacat=0

 

This is what I get when I enter "Platinum 1 gram" into the search box, a ton of jewelries and absolutely no bullion except for that 200 dollar watch. There is something weird going on with Platinum because you can get gold and silver anywhere, but platinum bullion is not very available for whatever reason.

[MrB]

I use your link, and the first 3 hits is... Hold on, i'll make a zip of it. I used FireFox, and the "save as", and the whole page should be there.

A lot of them doesn't ship to Taiwan, but this dude sure seams to do?

 

I'm pretty certain your right, something spooky is going on, more then likely something is filtering your search results, for one reason or another. I'm thinking eBay, and either due to your personal settings, or due to some eBay/Taiwan agreement / issue.

B!

Platinum.zip

[optimus]

You're checking 'worldwide' in the item location filter, right? Just checking... If you're logged in it will filter results by location.

[taiwanluthiers]

For some weird reason when I clicked on "show international matches" it showed all the bullions!

[NightHawkInLight]

I believe the 1g. Pt bullion can be flattened to foil (careful, your investment could blow away in the wind!) and spot-welded to a CP titanium frame. Such an electrode would certainly prove the concept. Whether it would last or make much perchlorate depends on many variables, but I think so if one does his or her homework and minds the whole setup, success awaits...

 

WSM

When you say it could be spot welded to a Ti frame, do you mean that a Ti frame could be submerged with the foil and somehow it would not suffer corrosion? Or would the frame need to be sealed over somehow?

[taiwanluthiers]

Exposed Ti anode wont corrode, it just won't do anything... I think Ti is a valve metal meaning that current can only flow one way... so if 2 Ti electrodes are used, the circuit would be open because oxide would form on one electrode... correct me if I am wrong.

 

The idea is to use a strap to submerge the anode in the solution. I can't spot weld so I will probably use Ti staples.

[pyrojig]

The anode Ti will go passive. It will get a goldish layer of oxide on it. The spotwelded or attached section to the PT will serve as a valve metal.

 

As for my last statement to Nighthawkinlight. The waste I speak of would be metal, not really the time per-say. The lack of consistency in thickness may prove to be a prob. when it degenerates in the cell. This hobby is a labor of love , and yes much time is invested to learn the trade.