platinum coin/bullion for use in perchlorate production?

[taiwanluthiers]

I don't know if this works but it appears the price of platinum per gram is much much better compared to Pt clad titanium (which has maybe a few microns of platinum). Has anyone tried to take a 1 gram bullion and flatten it so that it can be used as an anode?

 

Another question is, would Palladium work for perchlorate production? It's very similar to platinum but much cheaper...

Edited January 22, 2013 by taiwanluthiers

[pdfbq]

You know how big 1 gram of Pt is?

Now try to make a nice big flat surface of that

[taiwanluthiers]

Yes I am aware how small one gram of platinum is (about the size of a penny), but even $100 platinum plated anode probably contains less than .3 grams of platinum, so it seems like a better deal. I don't know how malleable they are though.

[MrB]

I don't know how malleable they are though.

Talk to a railroad tech, and see if he cant put one on a piece of track for ya. Should come out nice and flat, all you need to do now is reshape it to your needs.To salvage the "scraps" recast. But if you can use a platinum plated anode, make the anodes out of something else, and plate em? It's easier, is it not?

B!

[taiwanluthiers]

Not sure how to plate anodes but I've heard companies do not tell you how it's done. I don't even know if I can make LD anodes. I was hoping it would be something I could buy but no one sells LD in anode form (only in lab grade powders).

[NightHawkInLight]

Is a gram of platinum as large as a penny? I would expect it to be much, much smaller.

[taiwanluthiers]

I know this is a stupid question, but can perchlorate be made with any platinum group metals, like would Palladium work (since it is also a platinum group metal)? It's much cheaper than Platinum.

[Mumbles]

Why not do some searching and let us know?

[taiwanluthiers]

I tried, couldn't find any information at all. When I searched palladium perchlorate production all I got was a bunch of irrelevant articles. I don't think it's ever been tried (or tried and failed)

[Mumbles]

This might get you started, and give some potential info. (this was the first result in a google search by the way) http://www.google.com/patents/US4267025

 

A method for preparing palladium coated materials: http://www.google.com/patents/US4411743

[MrB]

(this was the first result in a google search by the way)

My comment is completely not relevant to the thread, but here goes:

I've found that Google returns very different search results when i use the localized version, vs a English, and / or the English https:// version. I'm guessing your using one of the English versions, while he might be using something else, and this might be the cause for the different results.

B!

[Mumbles]

I've found this to be true for certain things. For instance if I type in "steak" or something the first couple hits are for wikipedia and probably some US based meat packers or distributors. There are however several local steakhouses and information about regional styles of preparation. If I do the same search on google.com.au the same first few websites are the same, but then it gives information about Australian restaurants and common preparations there.

 

For more technical inquiries, or more directed inquiries I've never really noticed much of a difference as far as best matching results go. Using the same search terms for palladium electrolysis to prepare perchlorate as before however gives the first 14 identical results in roughly the same order in google.com, google.com.au, google.de, and google.com.hk. I suspect using english search terms tends to bias it a little bit. I don't know if this is still biased by my physical location, but there isn't anything particularly regional or site specific about any of the results.

[taiwanluthiers]

I was hoping WSM or Swede could weight in on it. I figure Palladium has the same catalytic effect as Platinum since they're used in catalytic converters as well as many applications where platinum was traditionally used.

[WSM]

I was hoping WSM or Swede could weight in on it. I figure Palladium has the same catalytic effect as Platinum since they're used in catalytic converters as well as many applications where platinum was traditionally used.

 

I don't know about Swede, but I'm drawing a blank. I've never seen any reference to palladium being used for perchlorate production. The closest platinum group metal referred to in perchlorate manufacture is iridium, but usually as an alloy with platinum or, lately, (in patent applications) in a crystalline pyrochlore. The use of iridium in a pyrochlore is as a more expensive alternative to the ruthenates. There is a lot of research yet to be done, and we're working on it. I'm not sure if we're on the right track; but I'm hopeful.

 

WSM

Edited January 26, 2013 by WSM

[WSM]

You know how big 1 gram of Pt is?

Now try to make a nice big flat surface of that

 

The 1 g bars appear to be:

 

0.8mm x 9.8mm x 15.5mm

 

I like the suggestion on laying it on a railroad track to flatten it, but what if it sticks to the train wheel and rolls away? On the other hand, you could sandwich it between two pieces of stainless steel shim stock. My neighbor works for a rail company; it might be safer to send one with him and he can bring it back the next day, nice and flat.

 

Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one.

 

WSM

[GalFisk]

Here's some insight from ScienceMadness: http://www.sciencema...d.php?tid=10711

Short version: Palladium is not noble enough, and the chlorine will eat it.

[MrB]

I wouldn't ever put a piece of platinum on the rail "somewhere" and hope to find it after. I flattened coins, nails and stuff when i was a kid, but they weren't always left laying, they could zip away a fair bit at times. But a railroad tech should be able to place one in-front of a train that is immobile, and pick it up after the train has moved across it.

B!

[pdfbq]

The 1 g bars appear to be:

 

0.8mm x 9.8mm x 15.5mm

 

Well.. a very very optimistic measurement...

0.8 x 9.8 x 15.5 = 121.52 mm³

 

SG of Pt is ~21.5 gram 1000 mm³ so a bar of that dimension should weigh about 2.6 times as much.

 

Not that I don't like the idea but i guess one has to buy 10 grams and then re win the eroded platinum back from the liquor.

Then melt everything back into a fresh anode and start over.

Edited January 27, 2013 by pdfbq

[WSM]

Well.. a very very optimistic measurement...

0.8 x 9.8 x 15.5 = 121.52 mm³

SG of Pt is ~21.5 gram 1000 mm³ so a bar of that dimension should weigh about 2.6 times as much.

Not that I don't like the idea but i guess one has to buy 10 grams and then re win the eroded platinum back from the liquor.

Then melt everything back into a fresh anode and start over.

 

I got those numbers from the website of a precious metals dealer. After seeing your math, I wondered if someone goofed (certainly my eyesight is not what it was), so I recalculated the piece at 0.3mm thick and the result nearly matched your estimate based on the specific gravity of platinum. I'll bet someone transposed an eight for a three.

 

That makes the piece about 0.012" thick. That's very thin to start.

 

If rolled to thin foil to increase the surface area and spot welded to a CP titanium frame with a filled, tubular CP titanium lead, I imagine it would work well; so long as the platinum stayed there (dependent upon a proper set up with optimized conditions). At between $60 to $65 for the Pt it might be worthwhile to try sometime. I wonder how thin it can be rolled (what final surface area can be expected)?

 

WSM

[taiwanluthiers]

Or rather, dissolve it in aqua regia and plate it onto a depleted anode...

[MrB]

Is the shape very important? What i'm getting at, why not just use the coin/bar as anode? To inefficient?

B!

[taiwanluthiers]

According to one site selling platinum bullions, it's about 15mm x 9.8mm x .8mm (just approximate), I don't get why it's never suggested because if you buy Pt wires, it's about 20 dollars per cm (for .5mm wire), and that contains about 0.03 grams of pt per cm which is really not a lot if you think about it. I mean that one gram bullion is already a really good value at about 80 dollars per gram compared to the wire. A foot of Pt wire is going to have maybe the same amount of platinum but it's going to cost well over $300 dollars. You can buy a 5 gram bullion for that price.

 

I think shape is somewhat important because you want a good amount of surface area, but you can flatten/manipulate the coin/bar to increase that. As to how much you can do that I don't know: I've never seen platinum in person nor have I worked with it. I know gold is so malleable that you can hammer pound them into a large sheet only a few microns thick, not sure if the same can be said for platinum. I mean one gram of platinum, if you took good care of it (not let chlorate level run too low, use dichromate in the solution to protect it, etc.) should last hundreds of kilograms of perc. It just seems a lot easier/cheaper than try to plate LD by myself when I factor into many failures (wasted MMO anodes for one thing). Perhaps that's why industry never bothered with LD anode, too much trouble. Now if we can figure out how to recover eroded Pt after each run, then we've saved a lot of money.

[MrB]

I'm not convinced you could reshape it by squashing it with a pair of pliers, but it should be possible to beat it to shape, or, have a train run it over. We've cut it with water-jets, but even the tiniest sliver were sent back to the ordering costumer. As for how to reclaim the platinum from the solution... No idea. I couldn't start to figure out what you guys are trying to do in the first place, so at this point i'm going to go sit quietly in a corner, and wait for a "bucket solution" to be presented, where even the monkey brain (me) can get a working setup.

B!

[NightHawkInLight]

If you have a smooth, clean, rust free hammer and steel plate it would take hardly any effort to flatten a bar like that. If you have any skill it could be made much thinner and more ideally shaped than running it over with a train.

[taiwanluthiers]

where can I buy platinum bullion without such a high minimum order? all the metal brokers I have seen has a minimum order of 5 ounces of metal... I do not need that much.