Black Powder Thread #1

[pyrogeorge]

I made a batch of bp from pine charcoal and i made a test and the result was 30cm=3.04 sec.

Is it good time?What do you think?

 

It is powder not granulated.

Edited August 13, 2009 by pyrogeorge

[pyrogeorge]

??

[TheEskimo]

It would be hard to say. The powder wil burn faster if there is less there. A true way of measureing it would be to granulate, get a baseball, and a 3 inch mortar. Measure out by weight, 1/10 in BP of the baseball. Shoot it off, and calculate it's height, by the length of time it flew. Good BP should be able to lift 10 times its weight to the specified shell height of the diameter of the shell.

Here's a good comparison link: http://skylighter.com/skylighter_info_page...asp?Item=115#BP

Go down to the bottom of the page, it will have a comparison of different BPs, and the amount used.

[Swede]

PyroGeorge, do you have any way to get some commercial black powder like Goex, elephant, the Swiss stuff, etc? If you have some 1F or cannon commercial BP, it will give you an idea, like "as good as Goex" or "faster than Goex" and it gives you confidence that you are on the right track.

 

Or, do as Eskimo says. Nothing tests BP better than doing actual work with it. Otherwise, it truly is almost impossible to tell. The BP right out of a mill is often very slow because the flame cannot propagate well. Ricing or corning will increase speed, up to a point. If you have screens, anything between about 5 and 30 mesh is granulated well and should be pretty fast.

[pyrogeorge]

it's difficult to find commercial BP but i will try.In the past i bought some granulated BP around 20 mesh would be and it was slower than my granulated bp 20 mesh..

 

thanks for your reply

[Ventsi]

Ahh! Finally found this thread! Darn this place is like a jungle.

 

I remember Swede's experiments with CMC bound BP, does anyone else have anything to say on that? It seems it be a far better binder than Dextrin since it holds together better and you need less of it.

 

Does it perform better than Dex. bound BP? And more importantly , does it HANDLE better, meaning not crumble when riced?

[Mumbles]

If it crumbles when it is dry, something isn't right with what you are doing or what you are using.

[scarbelly]

My dextrin bound riced bp doesn't crumble when dry... I'm sure if I pressed or rammed it, I could get it to, but it certainly isn't easy.

[Ventsi]

I doesn't crumble, crushed is the word I was looking for, the grains to rub up against each other and over time a whole bunch of really FINE BP accumulates, it just gets annoying having to sift it out. Plus they can get crushed depending on how you handle them in a device.

 

Dex. BP is fine with me, but if there's anything better out there, why not?

[Mumbles]

Are you using homemade dextrin?

[Ventsi]

As a matter of fact I am. Commercial I suspect is MUCH better. But then again, CMC is the same price so I though I'd give that a shot.

 

Mumbles, don't get me wrong, my grains are strong, I can't crush them by squeezing them in my fingers. I was just looking for the next step.

 

Edit, I also only use 3% dextrin by weight. So that might play a role too.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Ventsi

[swervedriver]

Commercial I suspect is MUCH better.

 

I can't tell a difference between homemade dextrin and Cargill commercial dextrin. The Cargill completely disolves and the homebaked corn starch doesn't fully disolve, but stars are rock hard with no problems. Good stuff made in a jiffy as far as I can tell, certainly comparable to commercial

[NightHawkInLight]

So a few weeks ago I received PyroDirect's 1lb black powder kit in the mail in return for doing a promotional video for them. My initial impression of the instructions was extremely poor, so I did a total rewrite and came up with a new process. Without milling, and using only mixed hardwood charcoal I was able to make the kit produce very suitable black powder.

 

The theory behind the process used is that using just enough water to make the black powder into the proper consistency for granulating only partially dissolves the nitrate - Just enough to soak into the charcoal, leaving most of the nitrate in the finely milled form it comes in. Were all the nitrate to dissolve it would recrystallize in a much larger particle size than it was in originally.

 

I'm rather proud of the result:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfthCa-RRI4

 

A video of the kit and the process used (you may need to sign in to YouTube to watch this video since it has been marked as adult content):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80BdMscnfW8&feature=video_response

 

My rewrite of the black powder kit instructions that are now shipped out with the revised kit:

 

1 Lb. Black Powder Kit

 

WARNING: Read all instructions and safety requirements thoroughly before beginning. The seller of this kit is not responsible for personal injury or damage to property that may be caused by the use of the supplies or information contained within. Producing black powder for personal use may or may not be legal in your area. You are responsible for checking local and federal laws pertaining to your specific situation.

 

Black powder is the most important of all pyrotechnic compositions. It is used to launch shells and rockets into the air, to burst the colorful contents at their apex, and even in the fuse. Black powder traditionally consists of:

 

75% Potassium nitrate (an oxidizer)

15% charcoal (fuel)

10% sulfur (a fuel which also lowers the ignition temperature)

 

For this kit, all chemicals have been weighed to produce a pound of black powder. Expensive machinery is required to manufacture the highest quality black powder. For this kit, a much simpler and cheaper process has been developed which produces black powder of useable quality in fireworks.

 

Black powder is amoung the tamest of pyrotechnic compositions - It is not toxic, nor is it particularly sensitive to ignition via friction or impact. It is however still capable of causing severe injury if misused or recklessly handled. There are some safety steps that must be followed before using this kit:

 

[1] Always work outside. Were an accident to occur indoors it would be far more dangerous for many reasons. When indoors, there are very limited routes of escape, the building itself could catch fire, there is low ventilation, and any chemical fire will be much more violent due to being confined. All of these dangers are solved by working outdoors. A single folding table placed away from any buildings is a great work area.

 

[2] Clean the work area. It is crucial that any area used to make black powder or other pyrotechnic mixtures first be cleaned of all chemicals and unnecessary objects. Contamination from chemicals used previously could cause a relatively safe black powder composition to become very dangerous. Even in an area where pyrotechnic or laboratory chemicals have never been used, the area must still be cleaned in case of contamination from household or gardening chemicals.

 

[3] Do not use metal tools around dry black powder or any other live pyrotechnic composition. Some metals will spark when struck against other metal objects. Metal is also very prone to sparking via static discharge. A metal screen will be used with this kit to granulate damp black powder, but it should not be brought into contact with the powder once dry.

 

[4] Wear only 100% cotton clothing when working with pyrotechnics, both to reduce static, as well as for fire protection. Should the worst happen, a long sleeve cotton shirt will offer much protection. Safety glasses are also a must whenever working with pyrotechnic compounds.

 

[5] NEVER dry black powder or any other pyrotechnic composition artificially. Do not use a light bulb, heat lamp, or oven to dry black powder. Such things can ignite the powder in any number of ways. Allow black powder to dry naturally in sunlight, or in the shade in a dry climate - Always outdoors.

 

[6] Do not smoke around black powder or other pyrotechnic compositions. Do not ignite any pyrotechnic devices in sight of open powder.

 

[7] Keep all pyrotechnic chemicals and compounds away from children.

 

Supplies required to use this kit:

 

[1] One sturdy gallon sized ziploc type plastic freezer bag for mixing chemicals

 

[2] A few table spoons of liquid laundry starch (such as Woolite or Sta-Flo brand liquid starch - this will act as a binder to hold the black powder together)

 

[3] A wire mesh pasta strainer or mesh screen

 

[4] A brown paper grocery bag

 

[5] Water

 

[6] Isopropyl alcohol (optional for faster drying time)

 

[7] Latex medical gloves (granulating can get messy)

 

Directions for use:

 

Prepare a clean work area outdoors on a calm day with no rain expected. Put on your safety glasses and cotton shirt before going further.

 

[1] Open each bag of chemicals provided and empty the contents into a single zipping freezer bag.

 

[2] Pour 1/3 cups of water into the bag and 5 table spoons of liquid laundry starch. 1/4 cups of alcohol may be used to replace an equal amount of water if faster drying time is desired later. All of the water may not be replaced with alcohol or the liquid starch will not be able to bond with the black powder.

 

[3] Zip the bag closed and knead the mixture together with the hands for at least 10 minutes. It will become a clay like consistency. It is crucial that all the chemicals be thoroughly mixed with absolutely no lumps. 15 minutes of kneading is recommended.

 

If the black powder is more like a soft dough than a dry clay at this point, it must be allowed to dry some before the next step. If such a thing happens, leave the bag open and propped up so the contents will not spill for several hours. Then close the bag and knead once again for 5 minutes. Repeat this process until the black powder is of the proper consistency. If the black powder is too damp it will not granulate properly.

 

[4] Cut the bottom off a paper grocery bag and then cut once down the side to make a large sheet of paper to granulate and dry your black powder on. Prop the pasta strainer above the paper as best you can and empty the mass of black powder into it (a little at a time if it is a small strainer). With glove covered hands, push the black powder through the wire mesh and allow the granules to fall onto the paper.

 

[5] Gently spread the granules out over the paper with a gloved hand and leave them outside to dry. The time required will vary depending upon temperature and humidity. A good way to tell when the powder has become dry is when the paper it is sitting on is no longer damp but has become crisp. The powder should be acceptably dry by then. If alcohol was used to wet the black powder initially the drying time will be shortened to about 75%.

 

[6] Keep the black powder covered in a plastic container. The tub this kit came in is suitable for this purpose.

 

[7] Test your black powder by taping a fuse to one end of a sheet of paper and pouring a 1/2 inch wide column of powder across it. Fireworks suitable black powder should burn the length of a 10 inch column in approximately 1.5 seconds. Do this well away from the rest of the black powder.

 

Have fun and stay safe.

 

I'm sure the process could be replicated with higher quality charcoal to make black powder on the fly without the kit. I may end up using a similar method to make all my BP for a while since I'm yet to build a new mill after my old one puttered out.

 

You may notice if you watch the video of the kit being used that the ratio the chemicals come in are not 75/15/10, but more like 77/16/7. I suspect that has to do with making the chemicals simple to measure by the manufacturer of the kit (PyroDirect orders them from a seperate supplier) but it may actually help the performance with this process.

[FrankRizzo]

If you've read Ned's treatise on BP that he drew up for Skylighter, you can see why red gum dissolved in a non aqueous solvent is the preferred binder for granulated BP without milling.

[NightHawkInLight]

Sure, but as this is a kit, it would not be suitable to use a binder that is not included or obtainable at a supermarket. I'm very happy with the result for what I had to work with.

[dagabu]

Sure, but as this is a kit, it would not be suitable to use a binder that is not included or obtainable at a supermarket. I'm very happy with the result for what I had to work with.

 

That was a good tut and if I were just starting, I may even buy one to get going. The only thing that gets me is the price, $16.99. I in no way wish to demean your hard work but I would like to compare prices so everyone knows what to expect when they buy chems in the lower 48.

 

What I pay for bulk chems (50# bags) for BP:

 

KNO3, $.95#

S, $.91#

C, $.70#

 

=$.85#

 

Jon Blackert sells fuse powder for $1.00 a pound (http://addictedtoblackpowder.com/2.html) which is great fuel used straight for prime, rocket fuel* and a good mix in for charcoal comps.

 

Niel from UndergroundGadgets sells KNO3 for $1.70#

Sulfur for $5.00#

Charcoal for $6.00#

 

Making it about $4.25#.

 

You could get the kit from PyroDirect and then go to SkyLighter or UndergroundGadgets etc for a refill.

 

D

[NightHawkInLight]

Nah, I understand. The price gets me too. There are some things that would have kept me from promoting such a product, faulty instructions like what it had was one of them. I can live with sticking my name in front of something if a high price is the only thing I take issue with - But yeah, I would rather it were lower also.

[Ralph]

That was a good tut and if I were just starting, I may even buy one to get going. The only thing that gets me is the price, $16.99. I in no way wish to demean your hard work but I would like to compare prices so everyone knows what to expect when they buy chems in the lower 48.

 

What I pay for bulk chems (50# bags) for BP:

 

KNO3, $.95#

S, $.91#

C, $.70#

 

=$.85#

 

Jon Blackert sells fuse powder for $1.00 a pound (http://addictedtoblackpowder.com/2.html) which is great fuel used straight for prime, rocket fuel* and a good mix in for charcoal comps.

 

Niel from UndergroundGadgets sells KNO3 for $1.70#

Sulfur for $5.00#

Charcoal for $6.00#

 

Making it about $4.25#.

 

You could get the kit from PyroDirect and then go to SkyLighter or UndergroundGadgets etc for a refill.

 

D

 

 

what do you mean refill the kit is just the chems and a roll of visco prety much

 

 

 

[xetap]

The price could be looked at as 'reasonable' if you consider the shipping for chemicals in larger amounts- especially if you're buying from several places, Skylighter has a minimum of $30(?), the kit includes instructions (obviously this is also available online) and is self-contained.

 

Also obviously, this will appeal to those who don't really know what the whole pyro "deal" is- and hopefully won't go just to k3wl-types- but will serve to get more serious-minded pyro-wannabe's involved in the hobby.

 

A couple bucks less sure wouldn't hurt, though.lol

[dagabu]

what do you mean refill the kit is just the chems and a roll of visco prety much

 

Exactly! I got a 1000' spool of Chinese visco at PGI last summer for $20.00. (first table to the right)

 

X, don't get me wrong, I got my first chems from the farm store in 50# bags so I am spoiled to be sure but even noobs can use Underground Gadgets for better prices.

 

D

Edited March 29, 2010 by dagabu

[xetap]

I can see that, surely. But I also can see a market (albeit a small market) for this 'kit'.

 

To a noob who doesn't even know if he's going to get into this as a hobby, and is just curious to see what BP is "all about", spending $25 plus for a bunch of chems w/o instructions, and not knowing anything regarding the necessary milling that "raw" chems sometimes need, or even knowing about storing the leftover chems, etc. might not seem as 'convenient' as a pound all ready to be mixed and tried- complete w/instructions.

 

I'd be curious to see what kind of feedback it gets from guys who've never made BP.

[PoorBoy]

That was a good tut and if I were just starting, I may even buy one to get going. The only thing that gets me is the price, $16.99. I in no way wish to demean your hard work but I would like to compare prices so everyone knows what to expect when they buy chems in the lower 48.

 

What I pay for bulk chems (50# bags) for BP:

 

KNO3, $.95#

S, $.91#

C, $.70#

 

=$.85#

 

 

Just wondering, where do you buy chems in bulk from for deals like that? I primarily use Neal at Underground Gadgets because he's the best I have found so far. KNO3 and Charcoal are something I could see buying in a 50 pound bag though.

[dagabu]

Just wondering, where do you buy chems in bulk from for deals like that? I primarily use Neal at Underground Gadgets because he's the best I have found so far. KNO3 and Charcoal are something I could see buying in a 50 pound bag though.

 

Crop production services across the USA have the KNO3, I take care of a commercial property so I have access and licensenture to chems you not have. That being said, from Ihaveadotcom Phils has kno3 for about $2.00 a pound in quantity.

 

Sulfur runs about $4.00 a pound and hardwood lump charcoal for $1.00 a pound from Humphreys .

 

My price is so low because I wait and take advantage of bulk orders at PGI and the like. Patience is the key.

 

D

 

 

Dont know what happened, the formatting went to hell...

Edited April 15, 2010 by Mumbles
Fixed formatting

[TheEskimo]

Poorboy--SeattlePotterySupply has KNO3 for .98$ a pound if you get 100 pounds. I went with 25lb for about 28$, without shipping. Also have a lot of the oxides that one uses. Great place for cheap KNO3. Would anyone care to enlighten me as to why pottery people need KNO3? I looked, and couldn't find anything.

[Swede]

NHIL, the non-milled BP looks decent and apparently will lift nicely. That's the good thing about lift vs burst. With lift, the speed of burn isn't as critical as for a burst charge. So long as it's decently fast, the gas volume generated is what lofts the shell.

 

I'll bet that BP would also function in a core-burner at the otherwise too-hot 75:15:10 ratio.

 

I find it pretty interesting that there have been a number of alternate BP methods created in the last few years. Before, it was either crappy green mix, CIA method, or mill.

 

On dextrin - it seems that soooo many recipes call for it, that, or SGRS. They were probably using SGRS 800 years ago. I think we can do better in these modern days with non-aqueous solvent activated resins and binders. Red gum is a good start. I know some guys think it doesn't bind, but I am convinced it does work well. I know the Chinese are using all sorts of modern glues and resins in their production, probably both because it works better, AND it dries faster. Time = money.

 

CMC gum, red gum, synthetic rubbers, and I'm sure dozens of resins that I can't think of off the top of my head. The HP rocket guys will know of these; I think they all have potential for a number of pyro tasks.