Black Powder Thread #1

[aa92td]

Hey.

Marks is it your ballmill that connected with the nascar roller in your youtube video?

btw intersting tests and results 10x for that.

[mormanman]

I have a question about black powder :

If I get white drop while burning, does that mean that BP's not dry yet ? I speak for wet grinded BP.

You have too much or too coarse KNO3. Its probably too coarse.

[marks265]

Hey.

Marks is it your ballmill that connected with the nascar roller in your youtube video?

btw intersting tests and results 10x for that.

The YT vid shows a clear jar to show the movement of the round lead balls at a medium and then a high speed. I have 2 jars I use outside the pyro machine on the external shafts, one is for ball milling which is a sch 40 pvc Loyd Sponenburg design and one is a modified version of that for corning. I only use the tire for rolling stars inside the cabinet, however my milling jars do fit.

I have done more testing and could post results but I would like to have the Mod Masters (administrators and moderators) OK this because it could get extensive. It would be like a public note pad. I find that instead of asking questions I need to apply theorys and practices first hand to prove or disprove how it should be done to acheive the best performance per application. For instance someone will ask "Is it better to mill the sulfur and charcoal first and then add KNO3, if so how long?" Just try it and see because what works for someone else may not work for you! I'll admit it I am guilty of it myself sometimes!

Black powder is centuries old and people still tinker with it-How cool is that?

PM (personal message) me if you have more questions.

 

Thanks for looking,

Mark

[Xtreme Pyro]

I also have a question about black powder:

 

I have just tried to make my first batch of black powder using the 75:15:10 ratio's. I tried about a gram of the BP and it , burned but it only sizzled. After it was done burning it left a white drop like residue on the surface can anyone tell me what i have done wrong or point me in the right direction? Thanks.

[Mumbles]

Mormanman, it's probably not best to offer advice when you don't know what you're talking about or care to explain. Just a life lesson to keep in mind for the future.

 

The white product both 50AE and xtremepyro are experiencing are generally called "pearls". As mormanman sorta stated, half stabbing in the dark at something he read somewhere but didn't really remember, the cause is poor oxidizer to fuel ratio. It consists primarily of potassium carbonate. It can come from a poor ratio, such as accidentally putting 175g of KNO3 in where 75g is needed. I know you're thinking "but I put in the proper ratio and I am 100% sure it's right". This may be true, but it was likely insufficiently mixed. Poor mixing causes pockets of composition to have varying ratios. By grinding it very fine and mixing it, everything is more or less uniform. Large particle size is associated with the insufficient mixing. Just because it looks uniform doesn't mean that it is.

 

You both can solve the problem by longer milling, or milling it if you have yet to do so. It's not uncommon for the powder to leave at least a little bit, but when it burns slowly, produces a lot of slag, and in large coagulated masses is when it becomes an issue. When you fire a shell from a mortar several times you will notice that the inside of the mortar has become rough and covered with a residue, this is the same stuff. I believe still damp BP may also cause this same problem, but for different reasons.

[nick2354]

Are your ratios correct? What did you use to grind it? What Charcoal did you use?

 

White "glob" is usually caused by it not being homogenous(did I spell that word right?), and therefore not burning quick enough.

 

With some basic information on how you made your black powder, it will be easy to find the problem.

[Xtreme Pyro]

Mormanman, it's probably not best to offer advice when you don't know what you're talking about or care to explain.  Just a life lesson to keep in mind for the future. 

 

The white product both 50AE and xtremepyro are experiencing are generally called "pearls".  As mormanman sorta stated, half stabbing in the dark at something he read somewhere but didn't really remember, the cause is poor oxidizer to fuel ratio.  It consists primarily of potassium carbonate.  It can come from a poor ratio, such as accidentally putting 175g of KNO3 in where 75g is needed.  I know you're thinking "but I put in the proper ratio and I am 100% sure it's right".  This may be true, but it was likely insufficiently mixed.  Poor mixing causes pockets of composition to have varying ratios.  By grinding it very fine and mixing it, everything is more or less uniform.  Large particle size is associated with the insufficient mixing.  Just because it looks uniform doesn't mean that it is.

 

You both can solve the problem by longer milling, or milling it if you have yet to do so.  It's not uncommon for the powder to leave at least a little bit, but when it burns slowly, produces a lot of slag, and in large coagulated masses is when it becomes an issue.  When you fire a shell from a mortar several times you will notice that the inside of the mortar has become rough and covered with a residue, this is the same stuff.  I believe still damp BP may also cause this same problem, but for different reasons.

 

Thanks for the quick reply mumbles, as for the damp issue, i did add some alcohol to help grind the chemicals together in my mortar and pestle i probrably should have let it dry longer before i decided to test it. Now that i am looking at my KNO3 i am seeing that i probrably didn't grind it good enough, maybe one of these days ill have to invest in a ball mill.

 

EDIT: Thanks for your reply nick, the charcoal i used was newspaper charcoal as it was the only source at the moment i had availible for charcoal.

[qwezxc12]

...Thanks for your reply nick, the charcoal i used was newspaper charcoal as it was the only source at the moment i had available for charcoal.

Keep at it. It may not be optimal, but perfectly serviceable BP for lift/burst can be made from newspaper charcoal. Some feel that it may not have the gas output of BP made with traditional "fast" charcoals (perhaps due to fillers and clay added to the paper), but it can be made quite fast. It makes very soft charcoal, so if you are hand grinding, that's probably a plus.

 

I've launched up to 4in shells using 10% of the weight of the shell in lift with repeatable results. Here's a old burn test of some: 15g - 30" @ .617sec:

Newapaper BP - burn trough test

[50AE]

No, I put my ingredients in the correct ratio. The problem was the same as mormanman mentioned. My KNO3 was coarse. I grinded my powder longer and there were no "pearls" after the burning.

[psyco_1322]

Froggy you shouldnt put lighters in containers of explosive materials. You might as well just throw in a hot match stick too. Keep that up and you may not live to long.

[frogy]

Froggy you shouldnt put lighters in containers of explosive materials. You might as well just throw in a hot match stick too. Keep that up and you may not live to long.

That lighter didn't have a flint, nor has it for months... It's far from a hot lighter, capable of igniting the compositions... As far as I see it, it's no worse than a sizing screen, and the lighter was gently laid into the container for a size comparison.... Most pyros across the Earth know the size of a standard lighter.

[psyco_1322]

^And grains of powder.

[pyrogeorge]

it is better to grind every chemical separate and then all together?for example 3hours to grind KNO3 3hours to grind sulphur,3 hours to grind charcoal and then 3hours all together..

[oskarchem]

Well, it depends on your ball mill (if you have one), If you have a good mill, then you could put chunks, of charcoal and all of the other components of BP at once and it would make good meal. But if you are using a mortar and pestle, then yes, grind evrything seperatly, then togeter...

[Mumbles]

It really is a tricky question. It depends on how safe you feel. The main advantage of premilling everything is that there is less overall 3 component milling time. This is the only time the mill could potentially explode really. As far as I have read, there isn't really a time saving or disadvantage one way or the other. They take about the same amount of time. Many people premill their C and S together. They are both fuels, and you might as well save some time. They both break up pretty easily in a good mill.

[frogy]

I normally grind large batches of Charcoal + Sulfur in a 3:2 ratio, then I mix that 7:3 with ball milled KPerch or KNO3... and if it's KNO3, I mill it for a few more hours... That's really only for Pine meal, Pine 6:3:1, and Pine KP though.... For lift I just mill everything together for 3 hours...

 

Enough about me... Really it doesn't matter... If your charcoal is decently fine, and your KNO3 isn't in prill form, a ball mill should be able to handle it all together in 3 hours (for a good ball mill, not a POS Rock Tumbler).

[pudidotdk]

I made some tests, all from the same batch of BP, milled 3 hours with willow charcoal.

I tested a 1 meter trail of different BP. All was 10-20# except meal.

 

Meal powder

Video

(68.49 cm/sec) Burntime = 1.46 sec

 

Corned to 1.7 g/cc

Video

(138.88 cm/sec) Burntime = 0.72 sec

 

Granulated with 1% Red gum

Video

(178.57 cm/sec) Burntime = 0.56 sec

 

Granulated with 5% dextrin

Video

(178.57 cm/sec) Burntime = 0.56 sec

 

The two that were granulated burned faster than the corned, but each burned the same (0.56 sec according to the video editing program)

[KinneticEnergy]

Nice BP you got there, beats mine any day...

[Swede]

Granulated with 1% Red gum

Video

(178.57 cm/sec) Burntime = 0.56 sec

Your BP looks excellent.

 

Can you elaborate a bit on your technique of incorporating red gum into the BP? I have been using dextrin, and am curious as to the advantages the red gum may have over dextrin, if any. Red gum is soluble in alcohol, correct? Perhaps the use of denatured alcohol with no water would speed drying dramatically while also activating the red gum.

[pudidotdk]

I tested it so I would see how it would perform versus granulated with dextrin.

The idea would be that the denatured alcohol won't interrupt with the crystalization of the potassium nitrate, and thus, be faster than with water. The results very identical.

 

The idea comes from Ned Gorski, he said

40 oz BP

.4 oz Red Gum

1.75 cup denatred alcohol

 

I dissolved the red gum in the alcohol, then added to the BP and kneaded until I got a nice dough that I simpy forced through a screen.

[Stinger]

Hi

 

Indeed a very fast blackpowder!

 

My BP is never as fast as yours, but its still very decent.

 

This is a 5g pile of corned BP:

(actually, I wetten the BP, and milled it in the ball mill then I got a

hard chunk of BP and I needed to give it a few whacks with the hammer to corn it.)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksGHxVNFJis&feature=related

 

First, the charcoal was milled for one hour, then I screened the KNO3, C and S together

and ball milled it for one hour, followed by corning.

 

Stinger

[psyco_1322]

Pudi did you ever think that your alcohol could have soaked up water and ruined the anti-recrystalization of the KNO3?

[Mumbles]

Adding alcohol to a water solution of KNO3 drastically reduces the solubility. The amount of water that would be absorbed, from the endothermic evaporation process of the alcohol (condensation), or just general hygroscopicity, would not make one bit of difference. The solubility of KNO3 in 70% alcohol is pretty much the same at 100%

[psyco_1322]

It would still be enough to recrystalize some of the KNO3 wouldnt it? After all thats the whole purpose of the alcohol is to keep that from happening.

[Mumbles]

A small enough amount it can essentially assumed to be zero.