Black Powder Thread #1

[whitefox77]

Aside from cost, is there any other reason not to buy BP?

[NightHawkInLight]

Aside from cost, is there any other reason not to buy BP?

Not that I know of. The cost difference between buying it and making your own is extreme though. The difference between $20/lb and $1/lb. Only other thing I can think of is you will have to powder the commercial BP to make hulls.

[50AE]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that the CIA method. I hear its real dangerous and kind of a waste of time but it works and thats all that really matters, right.

I can't tell it dangerous. If you add some water/alcohol it will be fine, then you will not worry from sparks. But it is a waste of time, yes. Faster and easier is done with a ball mill.

[rev.redneck]

Has anyone used a ice cream maker motor like the Hamilton Beach ice Cream Maker uses, has alot of power (geared) but is a little slow. I killed my old mill so am looking to make a new one. I had seen friends wife using hers (for ice cream) and thought it would work.

 

Just looking for opinions....

[Mumbles]

Well, never having used an ice cream maker, it is a bit hard to answer. If it's rated for continuous duty it should be fine though. The speed can always be changed with a few pulleys.

[TheSidewinder]

I can answer that:

 

I have one of those 5-quart electrics.

 

The rated duty cycle is way too short for most powder milling uses.

 

Making ice cream with it takes about 2-4 hours depending on a couple factors.

 

IIRC, the manual says to run it for no more than 6 hours.

 

Now, if you can do what you need in less than 6 hours, it would probably work. But it's geared way down already. You'd have to use a couple of pulleys to get the milling drum rotation speed correct.

 

M

[rev.redneck]

Thanx. I have an older mixer but its almost the same as the new one's. as for duty cycles, This should not be a problem, as I am unconfortable leaving it unatended it takes me a couple days to make a small amount. I shut it off when I'm not here/sleeping.

 

Also the seed company i buy kno3 from closed for winter so I'm using Spectracide Stump Remover msds says 100%. cost more though

[whitefox77]

Well, my firsts attempt at BP didn't work so wonderful.

 

75% KNO3 from Everything Pyrotechnic

10% sulfur from Skylighter

15% Charcoal (generic charcoal brackets with no starting additives, that I broke up and powdered)

 

Milled it all together for about 6 hours in my neighbors back yard (with their permission and full knowledge of what I was doing and making).

 

I mixed the meal powder with water until I had something like mud and stirred this with a popsicle stick for about 10 or 15 minutes. Then I added alcohol per the instructions in Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics. After that I poured it onto the middle of an old tea towel, and wrong it out as hard as I could. Then I grated the lump of stuff I got out of the towel through some aluminum window screen to get graduals, and let this sit out to dry for a couple days.

 

When burned it's about 1/4 the speed of commercial FFg BP (gustamated based on observing equal quantities burned). And I get little blobs of yellow stuff coming out of it.

 

At least part of the problem is probably my charcoal. I've used it in fountains and stars without problems, but I'm assuming BP is a bit more sensitive to the charcoal quality. Unfortunatly short of buying charcoal specifically for pyrotechnics some where, I'm not sure how to get better quality. I live in an apartment and making my own simply isn't a possibility.

 

I'm thinking about trying to mix my rather crappy BP with commercial BP in the hopes that I'll have something that is at least usable, but still cheaper than the commercial BP. Could this work, or is there a good reason not to do this? I figure that mixing commercial with mine in equal parts will make it so I'm paying $11 per pound instead of $20 per pound.

[bmarley5780]

Just a guess, but it sounds like you didn't use the "right" BBQ charcaol.

You need the natural wood charcoal or lump charcaol as it is called in the the BBQ world.

 

 

I use Cowboy lump charcoal that found in Lowes.

[Mumbles]

I think a lot of the problem is your preparation technique. The wetting to the consistency of mud, adding alcohol, and ringing out all the liquid probably actually made it worse. That liquid is taking some of your chemicals.

 

I would probably just wet it down to the consistency of clay or so, and push it through a screen to make grcanules. I think you will notice a definite increase in preformance. This is with future batches, the stuff you have now is probably done for. Maybe you could make stars or a fountain from it.

[qwezxc12]

Also, don't use Charcoal Briquetts...regardless of the fact that they have no starting fluid additives, they're full for clay and other fillers / binders. Like Mr. Marley said, look for lump charcoal, not briquettes. Cowboy brand or an analog will make fine BP for lifting shells.

[hst45]

whitefox, you said that you milled you batch for 6 hours. How was this milled? I'm not sure if you're trying to do the "CIA method" or not, but for a test procedure I'd try basic mortar and pestle BP instead.

 

The problem with inferior BP is usually either bad charcoal or incomplete grinding. Charcoal briquettes have a reputation as a lousy charcoal source, so you should try the cowboy brand as bmarley said. Run this through a blender or a grinder and make it as fine as your patience allows. Mix this into the desired ratio and crush it all together until you can't differentiate the ingredients. I wouldn't mix in any alcohol or water at all. It's a dusty mess, but that's the only downside.

 

When it's all as fine as you can make it, spray on just enough water and kneed it into a lump the consistency of modeling clay and press it through a window screen as Mumbles said. A pair of latex gloves makes this a much less objectionable process. Dry this for a day, and you should have serviceable BP. God luck.

[bmarley5780]

A website all about lump charcoal from a BBQ stand point.

 

http://www.nakedwhiz.com/lump.htm

[whitefox77]

Okay, I picked up a bag of Kingsford 100% natural Lump charcoal from the grocery store today. Tonight I'll grind it up, and tomorrow I'll mill all the stuff together in my ball mill.

[bmarley5780]

Fox-

 

Good job! Let us know the result on the Kingsford brand. Whould be nice to see if it effects BP different then Cowboy brand.

 

-Joe

[whitefox77]

Ground up the charcoal, and put all the chems (for a 40g batch) in the mill early AM on the 15th. Milled for 8 hours while I slept, got up and misted it with water until it was the consistency of slightly crumbly clay. Screened it and then put in out in a very thin layer to dry.

 

I realize that it's probably not 100% dry yet, but I just had to try it out before going to work. It burned at least twice as fast as the last stuff I made, and didn't have the bubbly residue. It's not quite up to par with the commercial FFg, but it's close.

 

I think the final product being larger grains would help, mine are about 1/2 the size of the commercial FFg grains.

 

On a side note, the crappy stuff I made before isn't a complete write off. I made some quick match with it right after I posted how bad it was, and the result isn't too horrible. It burns at a rate of about .75 seconds per foot. I wouldn't use it to light set pieces, but I could see using it for going from the top of a mortar to the powder at the bottom. I'm also going to try using some of the remainder as a delay composition.

[Draco_Americanus]

Aside from cost, is there any other reason not to buy BP?

I use Goex ffg fffg ffffg and meal D as a gold standared to compare how well my own powder works, the only thing i have that can compeat with goex is corned powder, my cia method powder just plain sucks.

when i make a batch i give it a lot number so i can keep notes on them. i.e BlackDragon rev A

Goex can be found cheaper from places like http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm

if your willing to buy in lots

 

I think my eyes are bleeding after reading all 30 pages lol

one note on the china freight....eer harbor freight rock tumblers is the belts are total shit, i got a v belt from http://www.mcmaster.com/ (also got the delrin and acrlic tube for my powder die from them). The v belt has polyester reinforcment so it wont break as easy, it did wear a groove in both pullys but it works. I also use a lortone QT6, it's a bit slow but does the job, i have parts for a new ball mill useing a verable dc motor. I use stainless steel balls for bp and ceramic for milling metals. I need to mill in my home, (it's a moble home) so i dont like the idea of lead in my lair

 

note on static discharge, higher humidity can lesson this problem, i also wear ESD rated lab coats when handling freash or sesitive batches of comp, no whool! and for me no socks on carpet, socks are the work of the devil anyway

[oskarchem]

Just are you sure that the stainless steel media are non sparking because, if not, no point of wearing lab coats...

[Draco_Americanus]

yeah its one of the non sparking types, i also pre mill all the chems so there is less time in the mill

[nick2354]

I have been struggling to make good quality BP, I was using Store bought Charcoal (Type of charcoal unkown, Its made in Argentina though).

 

My problems are solved I followed 50AE method of making Newspaper Charcoal, and well I couldn't be happier , It burned so fast prior to my previous attempts.

 

For My old BP I Mortar & Pestle It for like 15 minutes and I am still left with Crap BP, I then proceeded to use CIA Method which still made very poor BP.

After a while of frustration I saw 50AE method of newspaper charcoal and It worked fantastic. It had only been Mortar & Pestle for not even 1 minute.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpVvtQjMSUU Let me know what you think.

[Mumbles]

It looks not too bad for speed. From what I have read, for good mortar and pestle charcoal, it takes somewhere in the vicinity of 2 hours for the best product, along with periods of wet grinding. I believe the results are in one of the best of AFN's. Number two I believe.

[mormanman]

I watched it and man that stuff was fast and also the other links from it. I watch some of the sulphur less one and those were really fast too.

[oskarchem]

Ok, decided, from now on I am going to make my BP from newspaper... Just need to find myself a bigger retort...

[FrankRizzo]

Don't be so quick to jump on the wagon. The apparent speed you see there is due to the lower density of the charcoal because of the inert clay binder..the same effect you see with poloverone vs. pressed and corned powder. What you gain in speed, you lose in gas volume (power), and will have to use more to be effective.

[Frozentech]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpVvtQjMSUU Let me know what you think.

It's actually a little hard to tell. It seemed like a lot of sparks flew, which isn't really a good thing in "hot" BP. Also, it seemed like there were 'pearls' of residue left on the surface where you burned it ?

 

Could you film it again, in daylight ? Burn a 1 gram pile on a piece of white typing paper and zoom in on the spot afterwards.

 

For 1 minute in a mortar and pestle it did seem fast.