RodgerDodger Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) Hello all, As I read and learn more on pyro formulations and chemical incompatabilities; techniques pop into my mind and one in particular has haunted me for several days now. Being EXTREMELY hard to get; I thought about adding Napthalene Flake in the burst charge to add an added assurance of ALL the stars being completely lit. Plus, a nice flash, in certain types of formula formations, as they are spewen out of a nice hard break they would look awesome..... Maybe it's just me...LOL... I'm trying to creat my own special launch. Lampares are cool but, I'd like to build on that and throw some color out there since now I'd have total attention!!! Hahahaha... Admitidly I have a bit of the Kewl bug still in me.. I'm workin on it. I love big sky booms and sky lighing effects. Ever since I was a kid going to Ivars professional fireworks here in my home State; I still to this day can hear in my head the report echoing back and forth throughout the Sound....... It left an impression on me I doubt I'll ever forget... I still giggle when they go off. The multiple salute reports are freekin cool man... Sadly I doubt I'll ever tire of these types of morter shells. As I progress, I know one day when I can run a show and build the stock for the event My Show WILL definatly end in a MASSIVE thunder Storm! For now I'm trying to go in the flow you all are and am looking to create colorfull shells not seen before or maybe one thats been done but add to it. There's one by Ned that has a red center streamers with beautiful blue streamers engulfing the red... it actually looks alot like a jellyfish without the Tenacles. Thats what I'd like to add to it, for example...Tenacles... Got a bit excited and off track. Please forgive me and try to look back when you started. I'm assuming the enthusiasm was there for you as well? However, I have no background in Chemistry I thought I'd ask you opinion on such a task. Are say Flash and or BP compatable with this component and secondly, would there be any benefit to the addition of such a chemical? Is or was this chemical ONLY for the Lampare style aerial shells? Has anyone added this component to a beautifuly created aerial masterpiece, as a variable??? One entity supposedly carries this Chemical and I wouldn't mind acquiring a bit to play with....First things first.... Would the Naphtalene flake be better utilized in salute inserts to give a visulal effect along with the report??? just a couple ideas I'm tossing around and OF COURSE I would NEVER mix ANY Chemicals without the Safety factor. I'll use the MSDS, this site and any other valuable charts and notes to keep myself and others from harm. Safety is ALWAYS #1. I read Bill Ofcas "Flash Safety" writing every day just to keep myself humbled and reminded of just how quickly and wrong stuff can go in this art !!!! Thanks for reading my babblings. Please be gentle. I am new yet 100% interested in learning the Craft in the correct mannor.... Respectfully, RodgerDodger...Doc1.docx Edited December 31, 2012 by RodgerDodger
RodgerDodger Posted December 31, 2012 Author Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) My BAD guys, I just noticed I put this in the comps section. I guess it should of gone in the Newbie section. I am truly sorry. If a Mod would like to relocate this I'd be gratefull. Again sorry for not paying attention, RD.... P.S. the above attached file is a photo of Neds comp I'd like to build on.......... Edited December 31, 2012 by RodgerDodger
NightHawkInLight Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Naphthalene really won't help your stars to get lit. Each little flake of it needs to be lit itself by the burst charge just like a star, though unlike a star it must draw all the oxygen it needs to burn from the air outside of the shell once it has burst. This make it even more difficult to ignite than stars. The flakes will not burn if they are thrown from the shell in clumps, since there is not enough oxygen dispersed within the clumps to sustain a flame. The effect you will see by adding naphthalene to a regular shell containing stars or other effects will be little. It takes a significant amount to distinguish itself from a regular black powder explosion when several hundred feet in the sky, and adding that much just mixed in with the break would smother the black powder to barely burst the shell at all. To have any success you would need to layer in the naphthalene as you would an outer petal, with an inner petal of stars. This would give you a small burst of stars extending outward from an orange fireball. The diameter the stars fly will be small since they are an inner petal, but placing them instead on the outside of the naphthalene would likely cause them to fail to ignite at all unless some special modification were made such as passfires from the core of the shell to the outer layer to bypass the dense layer in between. I have done quite a bit of experimenting with naphthalene and have figured out that it's best used mixed with another more free flowing chemical to prevent it from clumping when thrown from the shell. Usually I use it 50/50 mixed with charcoal, both finely powdered together. I realize there may be some terms and methods I mentioned that may not be familiar to you, but you will learn best by researching them yourself.
NightHawkInLight Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Also, you can usually obtain naphthalene locally sold as old style mothballs. Just be sure they say they're naphthalene on the box. Here is something that may help you to visualize what I describe in the above post:
psyco_1322 Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Most lampare are liquid fueled, it seem's like maybe you are under the impression they are naphthalene based. They are usually made with a bottle of gas or diesel inside a thick walled tube, then one end usually has a hefty flash load that blows the bottle apart and disperses the fuel as it ignites. My avatar is of lampare being made. As Nighthawk explained, adding naphthalene will do nothing more than ruin your work of art. With a good prime, star ignition is not usually much an issue.
dynomike1 Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) Good video, now i understand how to make a double petal. I sure would like to see how you got that layer of hulls between those two layers of paper. Edited December 31, 2012 by dynomike1
Arthur Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Naphthalene is sometimes used in fireball devices, especially in the battle simulation market. However it is unpleasant to work with and mildly toxic including to the ground it lands on. It has in Europe been banned from retail supply simply because of it's toxicity, so I'd advise you to look at other methods of making fireworks. It often helps to have good BP and use the right mesh grade for each part of a firework. The traditional methods are often good and if they are well tried and tested then there is hope that you will get a fair result without hassle.
psyco_1322 Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 It often helps to have good BP and use the right mesh grade for each part of a firework. The traditional methods are often good and if they are well tried and tested then there is hope that you will get a fair result without hassle. I'll second that, cutting corners is not a good idea in this hobby, it will most often result in failure.
NightHawkInLight Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Good video, now i understand how to make a double petal. I sure would like to see how you got that layer of hulls between those two layers of paper.When I build ball shells I do it like a 3d printer would, layer by layer from the bottom up. Pile stars as high up the walls as I can before they fall inward, lay paper, add some burst, paper, handful of stars shaped into the smaller half sphere, more burst between the two layers now that there are some stars on the inside to support the shape, on it goes. That is not how I made the above shells though. Since they are inert only the surface layer or two of stars were made that way. The rest is filled with sand. I posted a thread about making them once, but I can't seem to find it.
RodgerDodger Posted January 1, 2013 Author Posted January 1, 2013 Sweet guys! Thanks for the input! Guess I'll bag the Naphtalene.... It's hard to find for one and with your expertise it just doesn't sound worth the hassels... Very EXPENSIVE IF you can find some! doesn't sound like it would make the HUGE fireball I'd like to have anyway. Gas isn't something I'm ready for right now either so can that idea!!!! Think I'll let the creativity go and focus on a basic Blue or Red shell for my first attempts and gain a little experience then move on to more advanced techniques once I got the timing, priming, lift and star making a bit stable... Picked up a really deep blue formula from Skylighter and a blinding Red Comp somewhere to try. I hope to combine the stars at some point and add trails for tentaciles to create that Jellyfish shell I have in my head! Thanks Mr. Gorski for the cool shell to build upon.... Are cyclindrical shells hard to get in the air??? I'm thinking stability isn't real good with em???? Gotta do at least one Boomer this 4th... To me it seems the spherical are best for stars and the likes and cyclinderical for BOOM or multi breaks am i correct on this? I'm no where near ready for breaking shells. I want to get a few single color shells up and proportionatly correct first! I need to do more reading. Any advice to hone my skills on shell building. Specificaly in the arena of multi colors so I can begin to understand the basic principals in these types of builds??? The layering looks simple but I need step by step instructions to grasp exactly whats being done and how such methods propel the stars and whatnot. I'm not schooled so tutorials need be in laymans terms... for the most part. Thanks again for all you guys chimin in. I had a huge grin just now when I logged in. Feels like I'll learn a lot here and get some awesome guidance getting this off the ground...Hahaha pun intended.... I'm so stoked but bummed right now. There's tons of booms and aerial shells going off here. My Chems are in transit so I'll shoot for the 4th. Would like to have some neat stuff to display for the neighborhood block party!!!! I've provided the Fireworks for over 20 years around this hood... don't see that changin anytime soon...Hopefully anyway! I've loved the Art for Soooooo long. just feels right to finally be making my own now! Enough for now RD.....
psyco_1322 Posted January 1, 2013 Posted January 1, 2013 When building shells, all principles come together at once. The star making, priming, filling the shell, pasting it, timing, lifting and leadering, and breaking the shell will all be part of the experience. It's best to start with tried and true methods, it will help to get a better end result. Cylinder shells shoot into the air all the same as balls do, shape hardly has anything to do with how well the shell gets into the air. Every shell will tumble through the air after it leaves the gun, that is not an issue, it's just physics. They are a totally different animal, the methods of construction are way different, as are the way they are filled and broke. I like them, there is a lot of interesting effects that can be made. I like booms, but I would much rather have a shell of many booms, timed to go off in sequences and patterns, than a single ground or air devise. Cylinder shells are the best way to achieve that kind of effect. If you want a lot of good info, join www.passfire.com, there are lots of tutorials and you can easily grasp the methods of construction. It's also full of a lot of knowledgeable people, including Ned, which as far as I know, is not on this forum.
RodgerDodger Posted January 1, 2013 Author Posted January 1, 2013 Thanks Psyco_1322, Will take a look into Passfire. Appreciate all your input. I agree multiple booms would be awesome. i just haven't been able to grasp the concept of how multiple salutes in a shell can be individually ignited... I'd think the force of the inital charge would blow the fuse out??? If not destroy the inserts? Guess I need to research more. I do apprecite the input but feel I need to put some time in reading and asking more questions when things are cloudy... Gracias Amigo, RD..
Mumbles Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 It's not particularly difficult to have internal inserts survive the initial break. What you described can happen of course, but there are relatively simple ways to prevent it. Work on the simpler shells first, and we'd be more than happy to help you along with more complex effects. It will be easier to grasp once you have a handle on the basics. You mentioned having a bright red star and a blue star from skylighter. Keep in mind that the difference in brightness will cause the red to totally over power the blue. You generally want to mix stars of a relatively similar light output. There are a number of star systems and formulas around that will give similar performing stars. There are a number of books as well that cover a lot of pyrotechnic topics very well. "Fireworks: the Art, Science, and Technique" by Dr. Takeo Shimizu is one of the best for ball shells and stars. Pyrotechnica IX and Pyrotechnica XI are one of the best for traditional cylinder shell construction. Pyrotechnics by Alexander Hardt is one of the best all encompassing texts. It covers a little bit of everything, and has a variety of excellent formulas.
Nessalco Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 If you want a lot of good info, join www.passfire.com, there are lots of tutorials and you can easily grasp the methods of construction. It's also full of a lot of knowledgeable people, including Ned, which as far as I know, is not on this forum. Another option is fireworking.com, which Ned operates. Kevin
psyco_1322 Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Another option is fireworking.com, which Ned operates. Kevin True, but there has yet to be a single post in his forums. With the cost of a membership and look of the site, I wouldn't guess there has been many people signed up there. Any articles he has on there are probably the same articles he wrote for Skylighter, which you can read for free. It's not a very intelligent investment of your money, IMO.
Nessalco Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 True, but there has yet to be a single post in his forums. With the cost of a membership and look of the site, I wouldn't guess there has been many people signed up there. Any articles he has on there are probably the same articles he wrote for Skylighter, which you can read for free. It's not a very intelligent investment of your money, IMO. psyco, Sorry to disagree. There are hundreds of posts, and many articles that have not been published by Skylighter - safety reports, making crackling microstars with bismuth trioxide, TLUD cookers, and others. Discussion and tutorials about italian style multi-break shells. Safety articles I've not read elsewhere. Sure, some articles are replicated elsewhere, and the formulary is still growing, but I like the site a great deal. Kevin
Mumbles Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 The forum itself looks empty until you register and sign in I would imagine. I thought the same thing at first Psyco, but figured there was no way that could be true. I'm going to probably register in the coming months once money gets a little less tight.
Algenco Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 psyco, Sorry to disagree. There are hundreds of posts, and many articles that have not been published by Skylighter - safety reports, making crackling microstars with bismuth trioxide, TLUD cookers, and others. Discussion and tutorials about italian style multi-break shells. Safety articles I've not read elsewhere. Sure, some articles are replicated elsewhere, and the formulary is still growing, but I like the site a great deal. Kevin another plus is Ned makes certain all questions get answed
psyco_1322 Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) Oh, well that's kind of good to know. It's dumb how it shows the forums and the "post counts" but nothing is even on there. I've seen several forums that individuals try to start and they do end up looking like that. I keep looking at Neds site wondering when someone will post something. I guess his over-taking of Passfire has got off to a good start! In that case, I might join some year when I got money. Just to state, I'm not hating on Ned or anything like that, he's a great guy and one of the first people I met at my first PGI convention. Edited January 3, 2013 by psyco_1322
RodgerDodger Posted January 6, 2013 Author Posted January 6, 2013 Sorry for the delay in response guys. First, Mumbles. I hear ya. I'm new here ...there's definatly an air of caution... You'll get to know me and will be comfortable with me soon. I'm not young and I'm in no hurry to meet GOD! I'm taking this slowly in retrospect. My mind is reeling with questions and I can't seem to absorb info fast enough...LOL. Hence, all the KEWL type questions. I'm still waiting on Chems for some basic shells first. I admitadly have a HUGE fascination with the "BOOM" affects. Not gonna lie about that! I'm extremely interested in Timed salute Shells to combine in my "COLORFULL" areial shells. I'm also interested in SAFELY making Lampares and Salute ONLY cyclindrical shells, as well. Firstly, I intend to gather opinions, printed literature and diagrams to avoid any costly mistakes and build VERY small scale articles and build up from there... Right now I'm in data collection mode as I wait for Chemicals to build more shells. If you wouldn't mind scrolling up to post #1. Check out my Doc1 attachment. It's EXACTLY what I'm gonna be trying to replicate and build upon. This is one of Ned Gorski's shells. I love the red and blue combo.I definatly understand certain colors can wash each other out or cause a distortion of colors rendering a composition null to the naked eye.. Carefull planning is in order... I got two comps one called "The Blues" the other is called "How to make blinding red firework stars". These are the two formulas I'm building with. I want to try and replicate this shell then move onto adding what appear to be tenticles as on a jellyfish... If I can do it Yahoooooo. If it flops I'll try another scheme... The flash/salutes will come in time. I'm still very lost in how to build a timed salute shell. I don't understand how the flash wont light up the visco and just cause a mess. Much more research on my part is forthcoming my friend. Won't be building one any time soon!!!! I do thank you for your concerns though....... To the other members contributions...THANK YOU as well. I don't feel having to pay to join a site is right either. Just someone with experience capitalizing off other entusiasts? not right. We don't make money off this...most of us anyways and the "hobby" is expensive enough. I wouldn't mind buying books though for having formulations and whatnot, but a major library should get me started for free!!! Just so were clear. I'm pro life. I have no desire to hurt any living thing or cause drastic and destructive concequences to life or property. I am in this hobby for the enjoyment and challenges it brings. My mind is very creative and this serves as an outlet for such thoughts and I very much enjoy the beauties the elements of this world and the creations of man can produce. Respectfully, RD.....
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