Lortone 33b or clone

[mabuse00]

Hi,

 

I finally decided that I cannot get away any longer without a proper mill. This was told me several time from the beginning, but I ignored it and struggled a lot with H3 & Benzolift shattered shells, failed timfuses ect. ect.

Since I only do this hobby on a very small scale and not very often (I'm in central europe and thus a criminal) I settled on a lortone 33b - or one of it's clones. Yes, I read the skylighter 6lb tutorial.

 

 

Now...

 

#Are there any crucial differences between the original Lortone tumbler and it's clones?

 

#I suggest the barrels are compatible, little differences in diameter should not hurt...or do I overlock something here?

 

#I'm under the impression that these machines are somewhat overloaded for our business, it seems that they are simply not designed to run with barrels half full of lead, but rather for jewellers stuff...

I like long lasting tools. How is your experience in the long run? What are the weakest parts (and what are your tuning measures, improved cooling? Ball bearings?)

 

#I read some scary stories of leaking drums. How severe is that problem, I never had such a rubberjar in my fingers and cannot judge it - can this really be fixed reliably with "a piece of tape"? Is there an accepted remedy for this? I would probably do 2 seperate runs with double component milling since I cannot afford any trouble here, but i don't want dusty surprises...

Edited November 8, 2012 by mabuse00

[Shadowcat1969]

I have the harbor freight clone, and since I work in pretty small scale, it has worked really well for me for over a year now. I haven't broken a belt, which I understand is the most common complaint, but there are options to replace the belts with things like vacuum cleaner belts trimmed to the right width, etc.

 

I have not had any chemicals leak out of the two stock rubber jars that came with the tumbler, they have a really nice, tight seal between the wall and the gasket of the inner lid. If I was concerned with it, I'd put a layer of PVC electrical tape around the seal on the outer lid, but I don't bother.

 

I don't know what differences there might be between mine and the actual Lortone though.

 

As far as shaft diameters and RPMs, check this post out: http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/7835-usapyros-guide-to-harbor-freight-ball-mill-modification/

 

USAPyro did a nice job on this. I used about 1" O.D. PVC on the driving shaft and 3/4" rubber hose on the idle shaft and that gives me a nice RPM and does a great job.

[NightHawkInLight]

After doing a lot of research into mills, it looks like far and away the best value to be found for big ones are the PVC jar mills on eBay. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ball+mill&_sacat=3213&_odkw=rock+tumbler&_osacat=3213&_from=R40

[dagabu]

After doing a lot of research into mills, it looks like far and away the best value to be found for big ones are the PVC jar mills on eBay. http://www.ebay.com/...=3213&_from=R40

 

That's the same one I have and make jars for. Never had an issue with it, makes BP in under an hour.

 

-dag

[nater]

I feel like I am outgrowing my 6lb tumbler from Harbor Freight. The mill upgrade I have planned for this winter will be based off the Thumlers Tumbler Model B, which can be purchased from Hobby Horse.

 

http://www.thumlerstumbler.com/images/rotary_b_small.jpg

[mabuse00]

Well I'm in europe, and buying in the US is out of question, shipping and customs would ruin the deal anyway.

 

@Shodowcat1969:

I have not had any chemicals leak out of the two stock rubber jars that came with the tumbler, they have a really nice, tight seal between the wall and the gasket of the inner lid. If I was concerned with it, I'd put a layer of PVC electrical tape around the seal on the outer lid, but I don't bother.

What kind of media du you use, lead or some lighter stuff?

Does your machine show any sign of attrition? Where?

 

@dagebu:

Never had an issue with it, makes BP in under an hour.

That's a very short time imho.

What features enable your mill to do so? What kind of media do you use?

 

I mean, with the right rpm near the critical value I assume the small Lortone to perfom likewise - or not?

[dagabu]

Not really, the correct speed, loading and media make the whole thing very fast with ZERO added danger since the media is much smaller than what most use here and is made from a material that is much harder than anything normally used to gring comps, i.e. copper or lead. I use Zirc-M grinding media I was steered to on eBay.com.

 

The heap cascades rather than bounces, it uses the crash more eficiantly than larger media and has several times more "hits" on the way down the heap than do larger media.

 

A manufacturer, Cole Palmer, recomends 3/8" max OD for 100u grinding, larger media is for larger materials but is not made to grind comps to a fine powder no matter what the popular beliefe is here or elsewhere.

 

If one were to buy the "Ball Milling Theory and Practice for the Amateur Pyrotechnician" by Lloyd Sponenburgh you would quickly see the way all of the different parts of the ball mill work together to make quick work of grinding. We seem to try to invent the wheel constantly here with ball mills for some reason.

 

Also, small media is a matter of efficacy instead of efficiancy. Small media in a correctly sized jar, properly loaded and truned at the right speed makes for efficacy of the ball mill or that the ball mill has the capacity to produce the effect or fine grinding. Efficiancy is conservation of energy, they are not the same and we should not confuse the two.

 

My ball mill is efficiant and has the efficacy to produce BP in an hour. It is not a matter of "better", that is a personal observation and has an emotional base but is not based on empirical truth.

 

I know that all sounded rather bossy but I have replied no less than a dozen times to the same questions about ball mills and thier ability (efficacy) to make BP in an efficiant mannor (an hour or two) without increasing the odds of an accident to the point of diminishing return.

 

Every minute you run ANY ball mill, there is a chance of an explosion, really, with any mill at any time. Increasing the time dramatically increases the risk exponentially. We often mistake the risk with linear growth of risk but that is not the case.

 

If the chance of a bll mill explosion is really 1:1,000,000 then every minute without an accident increases the risk. By the time you have reached 100,000 minutes, you chances have increased to 1:10!!!

 

This is why it is so important to limit the time that the ball mill is turning to make BP.

 

-dag

Edited November 12, 2012 by dagabu

[Algenco]

I mill BP for 1-2hrs but have been reluctant to tell anyone, everything I read or heard said that wasn't long enough, but I saw no difference in performance.

As has been said by several others numerous times "when the sound of the media gets loud it's done" after that point your just wearing the media and increasing risk

Edited November 12, 2012 by Algenco

[dagabu]

I mill BP for 1-2hrs but have been reluctant to tell anyone, everything I read or heard said that wasn't long enough, but I saw no difference in performance.

As has been said by several others numerous times "when the sound of the media gets loud it's done" after that point your just wearing the media and increasing risk

 

The point of diminishing return... Good on you Al!

 

-dag

[JFeve81]

That's the same one I have and make jars for. Never had an issue with it, makes BP in under an hour.

 

-dag

 

Dag. Out of those ball mills in the link, what size would you recommend? 35lb, 40lb, or 50lb capacity. Or are the bases all the same and I could just build the jars to size?

[dagabu]

I like all of the jars he makes but I stay with the 1 gallon jars or 15 pound size due to the incredible weight you will get filling it with media. Zirc-M is not as heavy as lead but it's still a lot to handle. Be aware that the weights named are the weight the motors are made to turn, if you want a 35# mill base for 1 gallon jars, you will have to contatc him to pair them up for you or do like I did and buy the 34# mill and make a 1 gallon (15#) jar for it.

 

Does anybody know what a 1 gallon jar weighs loaded with lead media?

 

-dag

[Algenco]

Does anybody know what a 1 gallon jar weighs loaded with lead media?

 

 

I had 35lb in mine

[dagabu]

How does the motor work with such a heavy load?

 

-dag

[Algenco]

3/4hp, no problem

[Mumbles]

My impressions were always that the pound rating was more to do with lapidary applications than true capacity. As in they will fit around 3lbs or 15lbs or 30lbs of rocks in the jar. I've regularly ran mills from harbor freight and Hobby Fireworks at double their listed poundage over the last 10 years and never had one issue outside of replacing a few belts for the harbor freight mill. The Hobby Firework ones were built approximately to Lloyd's specifications as far as I know (though he wasn't too pleased about this), so they should easily handle a full lead and black powder charge.

[dagabu]

Good to know! I really like the design and the heavy duty build, it won't turn my 12" drum but thats all I have been able to throw at it that won't work.

 

-dag

[mabuse00]

Thank you for your answers. Sorry if I bother you with some beginner questions, theres very much stuff on the internet an sometimes I don't see the forest for the trees...

 

Every minute you run ANY ball mill, there is a chance of an explosion, really, with any mill at any time. Increasing the time dramatically increases the risk exponentially. We often mistake the risk with linear growth of risk but that is not the case.

I'm aware of that.

 

If the chance of a bll mill explosion is really 1:1,000,000 then every minute without an accident increases the risk. By the time you have reached 100,000 minutes, you chances have increased to 1:10!!!

 

This is why it is so important to limit the time that the ball mill is turning to make BP.

Basically this is not important for me. You have to be prepared for an explosion anyway.

My problem is that I live in an area where I cannot have ANY explosions, it would bring me in great trouble (As most europeans. There simply is no legal DIY pyro here).

 

Question:

What do you think of double and double component milling?

Can I assume that as "safe"? Do you worry about dust-explosions (I think the mixture in the jar is to fuel rich for that...)?

-> Could I use steel balls?

How about performance?

 

 

The heap cascades rather than bounces, it uses the crash more eficiantly than larger media and has several times more "hits" on the way down the heap than do larger media.

 

A manufacturer, Cole Palmer, recomends 3/8" max OD for 100u grinding, larger media is for larger materials but is not made to grind comps to a fine powder no matter what the popular beliefe is here or elsewhere.

That was new to me. Skylighter recommends huge 1/2 lead balls in their tutorial.

 

If i use any lead balls, will material with 1% Antimony be reasonably wearing resistant?

[Shadowcat1969]

Well, I use 1/2" lead balls for muzzleloading, I just bought them from the local outdoors store because it was simple and quick for my first set up. I'm considering making Dag's (I think) lead filled copper tubing when I need some new media for this mill.

 

I also have had good luck building some jars for myself using 3" PVC pipe with end cap and plug, making them about 5 inches long total. They hold about the same amount of media and turn on the small mill just fine.

 

I'd love to find some smaller diameter ZircM, but I haven't had much luck catching any on eBay and it's hideously expensive from most suppliers.

[Algenco]

Well, I use 1/2" lead balls for muzzleloading, I just bought them from the local outdoors store because it was simple and quick for my first set up. I'm considering making Dag's (I think) lead filled copper tubing when I need some new media for this mill.

 

I also have had good luck building some jars for myself using 3" PVC pipe with end cap and plug, making them about 5 inches long total. They hold about the same amount of media and turn on the small mill just fine.

 

I'd love to find some smaller diameter ZircM, but I haven't had much luck catching any on eBay and it's hideously expensive from most suppliers.

 

muzzleloader balls are pure lead and will wear very quickly

[dagabu]

Thank you for your answers. Sorry if I bother you with some beginner questions, theres very much stuff on the internet an sometimes I don't see the forest for the trees...

 

 

I'm aware of that.

 

 

Basically this is not important for me. You have to be prepared for an explosion anyway.

My problem is that I live in an area where I cannot have ANY explosions, it would bring me in great trouble (As most europeans. There simply is no legal DIY pyro here).

 

Question:

What do you think of double and double component milling?

Can I assume that as "safe"? Do you worry about dust-explosions (I think the mixture in the jar is to fuel rich for that...)?

-> Could I use steel balls?

How about performance?

 

 

 

That was new to me. Skylighter recommends huge 1/2 lead balls in their tutorial.

 

If i use any lead balls, will material with 1% Antimony be reasonably wearing resistant?

 

The problem with double/double milling is that you will probably still not get a useful BP using that method alone, you will probably have to use hot water to get the KNO3 into the C to get a good BP.

 

Steel is a no-no with any chem that can burn, there is normally plenty of O2 in the mill to have a dust explosion take place and steel on steel makes sparks.

 

I think the idea that you would follow the recommendation from Skylighter over Lloyd or Cole Palmer is pretty darn silly, Harry is a great guy but he is not the one doing the testing, he just sells stuff.

 

Yes, adding some Antimony will help but it will not stop the wear. Ceramics work better and wear better as well.

 

-dag

[Shadowcat1969]

muzzleloader balls are pure lead and will wear very quickly

 

Yes they are, but at this point I'm kinda like mabuse in that I am only doing small batches, not very often, and the balls were fairly cheap and I could buy them on the same day as the mill and get started right away with minimal work on my part.

 

As I said, I'll be making or finding something much better eventually.

[Algenco]

Yes they are, but at this point I'm kinda like mabuse in that I am only doing small batches, not very often, and the balls were fairly cheap and I could buy them on the same day as the mill and get started right away with minimal work on my part.

 

As I said, I'll be making or finding something much better eventually.

 

that's what I started with and probably a lot of others did to, just letting you know they do wear fast

[Peret]

If the chance of a bll mill explosion is really 1:1,000,000 then every minute without an accident increases the risk. By the time you have reached 100,000 minutes, you chances have increased to 1:10!!!

Actually, what you meant to say is that the probability you would already have had an explosion would be 1/10th. The probability that you will have an explosion next time is still (and always will be) 1 in a million.

 

I live in Las Vegas. Misunderstanding of probabilities is what pays for everything in this town. Only in Blackjack does the past affect the future, and people who understand that aren't allowed to play.

[mabuse00]

The problem with double/double milling is that you will probably still not get a useful BP using that method alone

Are there some other opinions on that matter?

 

get the KNO3 into the C

 

I read that very often, sulphur and nitrate are supposed to get into the charcoals pores... but is this scientifically prooven or just some assumption?

If it was all about particle size the double/double method should work.

 

 

 

The only other media I found here in europe where white balls of Al₂O₃. Much lighter then lead. How "save" are they in comparison to lead?

[dagabu]

Actually, what you meant to say is that the probability you would already have had an explosion would be 1/10th. The probability that you will have an explosion next time is still (and always will be) 1 in a million.

 

I live in Las Vegas. Misunderstanding of probabilities is what pays for everything in this town. Only in Blackjack does the past affect the future, and people who understand that aren't allowed to play.

 

Thank God I don't gamble then?

 

-dag