shagaKahn Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Was of the impression that barium chlorate gave the best rich green fire effects--but when I search here it's barium nitrate and--surprisingly--Al. Seems to me the white burn of aluminum ruins colors unless you're maybe half-a-mile away. Want a good green lance I can show off tomorrow nite. Any successful green fire comps to suggest? Thanx in a trance,s
usapyro Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Not sure if this is what your looking for... These are bengals. They are like a flare, except you need to wrap them in thin paper that burns away as they burn downward. You can use a thicker casing if you use nitrated paper. I have used Green 3 and Green 4 a bit before. Real nice for handheld Bengals on a stick! They don't need to be pressed very hard at all. I have never wetted them with alcohol to bind the composition a bit, but that would be an interesting idea to test... Not enough time to do that before tomorrow though! GREEN90% Barium Chlorate10% Shellac GREEN 270% Barium Nitrate16% Copper Oxide13% Red Gum6% Parlon GREEN 3 (20Sec/Inch Approx) - Bright White/Green Flare68.5% Barium Nitrate15% Potassium Perchlorate15% Red Gum1.5% Antimony GREEN 4 (40Sec/Inch Approx)70% Barium Nitrate16% Potassium Chlorate13% Red Gum1% Parrafin Oil Edited October 30, 2012 by usapyro
Seymour Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 60 Barium nitrate17 Parlon13 MgAl6 Sulfur4 Rosin Can substitute rosin with other organic fuels if you do not have it, ideally taking account for differing fuel values.
shagaKahn Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 Y'all are hot! 'Cept for the "Rosin" I possess all the comps listed and there are just enough hours left before showtime to give these formulae a test. Came across your first GREEN in another database and tried a little this afternoon in a hand-rammed lance; worked pretty good. Can't wait to try your 3 and 4 as mine burned a smidge fast (perhaps more ramming is in order; didn't really do much more than compress them a bit in the lance tube). Super thanx,s
ExplosiveCoek Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 How can you get a green out of those comps, usapyro, without any Cl donor in there (except for the third one)? Seymour, yours looks promising. How fast does it burn? What is the use of the S in there, and why not add red gum instead to decrease the burning speed even more? Shagakahn, vid's of the tests would be appreciated !
Potassiumchlorate Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 How can you get a green out of those comps, usapyro, without any Cl donor in there (except for the third one)? Seymour, yours looks promising. How fast does it burn? What is the use of the S in there, and why not add red gum instead to decrease the burning speed even more? Shagakahn, vid's of the tests would be appreciated ! Excuse me, but are you blind? Potassium chlorate and perchlorate are also chlorine donors. By the way: at high temperatures barium nitrate actually gives off green wihtout any chlorine present. I tested Bleser White Mg (which is supposed to be white but has some green in it too, since it's based on barium nitrate) with phenolic resin as a binder instead of parlon. It turned out that individual stars still burned with a somewhat greenish colour. Barium chlorate+shellac is of course non plus ultra.
Mumbles Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Barium and strontium on their own will produce greens and reds on their own respectively. It's more of a lime-green and orangeish-red though. The particular "natural" colors just aren't as visually pleasing as the forms with chlorine around.
asilentbob Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Boric acid in methanol or denatured alcohol (ie SD40, etc) works just fine. The amount is trivial, anything from a pinch upwards per liter seems to work fine.Copper chloride works pretty well too. Both have the potential benefit (or hazard) to be sprayed for little colored fireballs from a simple hand spray bottle. Would be interesting (though quickly expensive) to mess around with pumping or spraying larger quantities into the air for larger fireball effects. I keep a swing top / bail top wine bottle around with denatured alcohol and some boric acid in it for quick and simple demos for people who never took much chemistry and are amazed by such things.
usapyro Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) Now I understand why chlorate has better colors than perchlorate... KClO4 vs KClO3... KClO3 has more chlorine for the amount of oxygen and potassium! 1 part chlorine to four parts other elements, vs 1 parts chlorine to five parts other elements with perchlorate. Probably more complex than that, but w/e... I am not a chemist and don't know why KClO3 burns at a lower temperature and produces better colors that way too... Edited October 31, 2012 by usapyro
AirCowPeacock Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Perchlorate decomps to Chlorate before releiving the rest of its oxygen. I would think Perc would give better chlorine because of the higher temperature of decomp. Maybe the higher temp causes more K color which washes out the other color?
shagaKahn Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 Seems the first simple comp with shellac is (as Kchlorate said) gonna do the trick. All those with metal aren't so much green as bright. Thanx for the methanol tip; naturally there'll be red and green cauldrons of fire all 'round--but I need something I can carry about like a torch. Appreciate all your enthusiastic input,s
ExplosiveCoek Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) Red gum is not a Cl donor, it's just a fuel. KClO3/4 are almost neglect-able as well compared with chlorine donors like parlon. Why would there be any Cl donors otherwise, if KClO4 on it's own would be enough to give Cl? Also I vaguely recall that KClO3/4 decompose by a different manner, not being able to give their Cl to the Cation producing the colour. I've to recheck FAST, or any other pyro book on that matter though. Eventually there will be KCl for sure, so you'll loose at least one Cl there. I don't think that there are many people still using shellac any more nowadays KClO3, it's expensive and annoying to work with. Same goes for BaClO3. Also I think it's a bit old fashioned (you'll only find it in the old comps, were they didn't even knew about the existence of MgAl and parlon) . Although I'm more of a shell guy and haven't really tried green flares, I do have experience with red ones. And for sure I like the metal based ones way more than the non metal based ones. I guess that depends on taste as well. Edited October 31, 2012 by ExplosiveCoek
AirCowPeacock Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) The redgum thing is a joke. And if KClO3 decomps to KCl ther will be no Cl lost. Count the number of chlorines--*psst* theres one in each. Alkaline Earth Metal salts have the metal in +2 (atleast for all materials stable at STP that I know of.) So in Barium chlorate their are two chlorate anions and one Barium cation. In a flame, just like a solution, ions are all jumbled around--no ions are really pairs. When the material cools the ions just grab on to whatever they can. Im not sure, but KCl may be more thermodynamically favorable then BaCl2--but not by a huge margin. KClO4 and KClO3 are effective chlorine donors. But the flame can be made even more Cl rich--which helps. With a Cl donor like parlon the flame becomes "super saturated" in chlorine. Thats why even with Barium chlorate a chlorine donor is frequently added, even though Barium chlorate has well enough Cl to form the BaCl- intermdiate. Edited October 31, 2012 by AirCowPeacock
superspike23 Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) i just tested this formula: ba(no3) 14gkclo3 3.2gred gum 2.8gpine rosin 0.5g my camera is still cloudy because the hight brightness 20 g of composition for 30 second http://youtu.be/IKKRIb_gN8E Edited October 31, 2012 by superspike23
shagaKahn Posted November 1, 2012 Author Posted November 1, 2012 Kool flare--but I'm looking for a deep green fire effect, not a blinding white flare with green overtones. The above vid speaks as loudly to this as need be. Quick'n dirty vid at the toob shows it all: a fire that lights up the surroundings a deep luminous green--not a glaring white: And guess what: it's Ba chlorate and shellac; as KCl03 said, you can't get any better than the best.
usapyro Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 Anyone know of a good burn rate modifier for barium chlorate/shellac? Would sodium bicarbonate slow it down without modifying the color, or would paraffin oil work?
shagaKahn Posted November 1, 2012 Author Posted November 1, 2012 Sodium anything added = bright yellow flame = bye bye green. When I rammed it a bit in the lance it burned less quickly. Just rammed it dry; perhaps a part of a % of mineral oil?
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) Red gum is not a Cl donor, it's just a fuel. KClO3/4 are almost neglect-able as well compared with chlorine donors like parlon. Why would there be any Cl donors otherwise, if KClO4 on it's own would be enough to give Cl? Also I vaguely recall that KClO3/4 decompose by a different manner, not being able to give their Cl to the Cation producing the colour. I've to recheck FAST, or any other pyro book on that matter though. Eventually there will be KCl for sure, so you'll loose at least one Cl there. I don't think that there are many people still using shellac any more nowadays KClO3, it's expensive and annoying to work with. Same goes for BaClO3. Also I think it's a bit old fashioned (you'll only find it in the old comps, were they didn't even knew about the existence of MgAl and parlon) . Although I'm more of a shell guy and haven't really tried green flares, I do have experience with red ones. And for sure I like the metal based ones way more than the non metal based ones. I guess that depends on taste as well. I still use both barium chlorate and shellac. IMHO shellac gives a "purer" flame. And you get an incredibly deep green with barium chlorate. Edited November 1, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate
optimus Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 Anyone know of a good burn rate modifier for barium chlorate/shellac? Barium Carbonate might be worth trying. As Potassiumchlorate said, you can't beat Barium Chlorate / Shellac in terms of colour saturation, especially when it's not an effect to be viewed from a distance. Add a sprinkle of amorphous Boron if you're feeling exotic
Mumbles Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 Also, please keep in mind that the smoke from these things will be toxic. You might want to drink some epsom salts if you're really intending on going through with this.
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 Anyone know of a good burn rate modifier for barium chlorate/shellac? Would sodium bicarbonate slow it down without modifying the color, or would paraffin oil work? You can tune it up by using red gum partly or completely instead of shellac. You can also tune it up by adding some potassium chlorate. You can tune it down by adding barium nitrate and/or barium carbonate.
usapyro Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 Ohhh, barium carbonate... That should work. Will test!
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 I think the nitrate is better, though, since it's an oxidizer on its own even in organic compositions. Something like this would be both pretty cheap and still very green and slowly burning: Barium chlorate 40Barium nitrate 45Shellac 15
AirCowPeacock Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) For a very deep green maybe substituting 5% of the Ba(NO3)2 for another 5% Shellac as Ba(ClO3)2 40% Ba(NO3)2 40% Shellac 20%. Edited November 1, 2012 by AirCowPeacock
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