PyroAce Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Not sure if this has been posted before but I think it's an excellent video demonstrating the different types of powder mixes we use in Pyrotechnics, watch the super slow motion, it's amazing how much energy is released: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esQ4G1a519o&feature=endscreen&NR=1
PyroAce Posted October 29, 2012 Author Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) Super flash powder tests: NaNO3/Mg, NaNO3/Mg/S, NaNO3/Mg/ferrocerium http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvV0e_a8KpI&feature=relmfu Edited October 29, 2012 by PyroAce
PyroAce Posted October 29, 2012 Author Posted October 29, 2012 Never heard of this before, wonder how stable it is? Copper sulfate / magnesium flash powder (CuSO4 / Mg) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6n3-rZOzPk&list=PL31BD8A70A7E13D7D&index=2&feature=plcp
pyroshell Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Yes I have heard of nano3 mg flash. I use it it is quite a bit more stable then kclo4 al 7:3. It is still more powerful. I would stay away from it until further research has commenced. I do not know how well it will hold up to storage or static. It spontaneously combusted at around 300C. So by no means is it a safe flash it is just more stable in certain ways than kclo4. 1
Potassiumchlorate Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 It's amazing that nitrate flash seems to be that powerful if you use Mg as the metal fuel. But you must use metal in abundance. I wouldn't like to store it, though unless the NaNO3 were 100% dry and I had an absolutely airtight container.
AirCowPeacock Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 That NaNO3/Mg/ferrocerium flash is pretty intense--to bad its probably to sensitive and expensive to ever really find its place in pyrotechnics.
pyroshell Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 It's amazing that nitrate flash seems to be that powerful if you use Mg as the metal fuel. But you must use metal in abundance. I wouldn't like to store it, though unless the NaNO3 were 100% dry and I had an absolutely airtight container. Well it works best with nano3 and mg kno3 and mg does not have the same effect. If you do some background research into the three chemicals you will see that nano3 is a much better oxidizer for mg than kno3. I remember one time on this very forum someone in chat told me that if you switch nano3 for kno3 it would be a much more powerful. He had assumed not only that I was only using nano3 for a substitute for kno3, but that since kno3 oxidizes charcoal and sulfur better that the same would be true for mg. Mg shares almost no chemical similarities with charcoal or sulfur. also i find that the addition of sub-micron ti powder at about 3% to 5% can help the heat of the burn thus allowing for faster oxidation. The main reason why mg is faster than al in this instance is that it burns hot enough to quickly decompose the nano3 letting the oxidation reaction to commence. I do nto know anything about the storage of nano3 flash as I have never attempted to try to do so. I will try not to speak where I have no knowledge and storage of flash is one of those topics.
AirCowPeacock Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) I had been informed that NaNO3 was a superior oxidizer for black powder--but its hydroscopic nature renders in impractical. Note this may be soley due to NaNO3s higher oxygen mass balence, Im guessing NaNO3 has a similar density to KNO3 and as such also has more oxygen for a given volume. This means (assuming the NO3 yeilds oxygen equaly) NaNO3 would have a greater avalibility of oxygen (at the same grain size) and the composition would have more moles of reaction per weight and possibly volume, depending on the density of the fuel because the stociometric mass ratio would be more fuel rich with greater oxygen richness too. If KNO3 is superior for black powder I would guess it has something with Ss ability to displace O on K2O as compaired to Na2O. Edited October 30, 2012 by AirCowPeacock
DetaDude Posted November 8, 2012 Posted November 8, 2012 This is one of those "you learn something new every day" sorta things. When I was a powder helper on a const. crew the old timers used say that the old soda giant powder had more punch than regular black powder . I now know what they were refering to and why.. Makes me want to dig out some NaNO3 and play around with it. I've got a question? where do you get Ferrocerium ? and what is its normal or common use? this stuff sounds spendy ! Gordy
pyroshell Posted November 8, 2012 Posted November 8, 2012 (edited) This is one of those "you learn something new every day" sorta things. When I was a powder helper on a const. crew the old timers used say that the old soda giant powder had more punch than regular black powder . I now know what they were refering to and why.. Makes me want to dig out some NaNO3 and play around with it. I've got a question? where do you get Ferrocerium ? and what is its normal or common use? this stuff sounds spendy ! GordyFerroceium is what is used for lighters or striker "flints". You can buy a bar of mg with a rod of Ferroceium at wallmart in the camping section for fire starting. I am not sure of the purity of this Ferrocerium. I also have no idea how you can make it into a fine powder, as it burst into flames when you crush it. I have take the Ferrocerium off of the mg bars and hit it with a hammer. I also have shot the rods either way it throws flame and sparks everywhere and makes a quite audible tone. It is by no means safe to do what I have done with it. I hit a small chip of(no bigger then the (edit head) tip of a finishing nail) it with quite a bit of vigor and it left me with ears ringing and it shot flames and sparks 2ft out in a disk. You might be able to buy it as a powder form from a lab supply house. I would not recommend messing with it unless you have extensive experience with flash and other H.E things.You must NEVER UNDERESTIMATE IT'S SENSITIVITY OR POWER if you do you you find yourself forever trapped in world of hurt,legal trouble, and quite possible death. I have never even attempted to mix such a thing with an oxidizer if you do so be careful. It takes almost nothing to intimate it without an oxidizer so i can not even start to imagine it with one. Edited November 8, 2012 by pyroshell
AirCowPeacock Posted November 8, 2012 Posted November 8, 2012 ferrocerium is pyrophoric. You would probably have to powder it under mineral oil and coat it--how bout in mineral oil. Sounds really fucking scary to me.
50AE Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 I never succeeded to make NaNO3 based black powder faster than with KNO3. Even when correctly balanced. It will work with reactive charcoals, but has never been faster than the K nitrate equivalent for me. The correct ratios for sodium nitrate black powder will be: 63 NaNO3, 15 Charcoal and 10 sulfur. 1
AirCowPeacock Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Are you working it out as oxidizing sulfur to sulfur dioxide?
AirCowPeacock Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 and Charcoal (as C) to carbon dioxide?
50AE Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) No, I am working it the way NaNO3 decomposes the same way as KNO3 does. There is no need to get into unneeded complication. NaNO3 weights 85g/mol, KNO3 does 101g/mol. Both contain the same moles of oxygen. If 75g of KNO3 are needed for 15 charcoal and 10 sulfur, then mNaNO3 = 75*85 / 101 =63g Edited November 12, 2012 by 50AE
Mumbles Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 My impression of sodium nitrate based black powders has been that it is typically slower burning and used in applications where even BP was too brisant. While KNO3 based blasting powders carry an "A" designation (ie 2FA, 4FA, 7FA, etc), the NaNO3 based compositions are referred to as "B" blasting powders.
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 They used to use sodium nitrate based BP when they should get big granite blocks out at the quarries.
AirCowPeacock Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 No, I am working it the way NaNO3 decomposes the same way as KNO3 does. There is no need to get into unneeded complication. NaNO3 weights 85g/mol, KNO3 does 101g/mol. Both contain the same moles of oxygen. If 75g of KNO3 are needed for 15 charcoal and 10 sulfur, then mNaNO3 = 75*85 / 101 =63g Thats probably the besr way to do it, but maybe some other properties get in the way. Perhaps one should look up what is used in industry for NaNO3 blasting powder.
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 According to Allen: Sodium nitrate 71Charcoal 16.5Sulfur 12.5
AirCowPeacock Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Which is significantly different then the one posted by 50AE.
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Which is significantly different then the one posted by 50AE. No. He posted in parts. In percent it would be: Sodium nitrate 71.6Charcoal 17Sulfur 11.4 They have just raised the sulfur a bit and lowered the sodium nitrate and charcoal for better ignitability. Edited November 13, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate
50AE Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Don't forget that I quoted the simplified BP ratios, which are 75:15:10 A much more close to stoichiometric ratio is 74,6:13,5:11,9. If we convert it to sodium based black powder, it will give 62,8 : 13,5 : 11,9 in parts 71,2 : 15,3 : 13,5 in percent Edited November 14, 2012 by 50AE
AirCowPeacock Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I come out to 75.6:12.4:12.0 for 10KNO3 + 4C5H7O + 5S => 4K2S + 20CO + 14H2O
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 18, 2012 Posted November 18, 2012 I think it depends on the charcoal used. With willow you can probably use AirCowPeacocks formula. The Allen formula that I quoted is probably for grapevine or another charcoal with more ash in it.
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