Black Powder Ricing

[usapyro]

I was searching the forums for a while and I couldn't find any posts upon precisely how to rice BP so I thought this would be useful for some people.

 

Here is how I currently do it. I have had issues going over 2g SGRS. The composition gets too sticky to rice.

 

Optimal SGRS Ricing

100g BP Meal

+2g SGRS (Alternately +3g Dextrin)

+26g H2O

 

1. Add SGRS to meal and ball mill for 5 minutes.

2. Place meal in a container and spray in 18g of water with continual mixing.

Optional: A couple sprays of alcohol on top before starting water additions.

3. Screen the composition at this point to break up any chunks.

4. Slowly spray on 8g more water mixing well after each spray. The composition should

not clump into larger than 4mm balls on it's own unless you are pressing on it or over-wetting areas.

5. Compact into balls and granulate through a screen onto wax paper. Done! Leave to dry!

 

Tip: Don't use a flat screen... It's too hard. Use a bowl shaped screen like a kitchen one. Hold the other side of the screen firmly with one hand and push the ball of composition toward you. For consistency use the same area of the screen to rice every time. That will keep your riced BP size consistent.

 

What is interesting is that the composition will NOT clump on it's own even up to 25-26% water provided you follow the steps correctly.

 

 

For perfectly consistent granulation you need to press your composition through a PVC tube with a screen on the end. I have not built one of these yet... Going to make one and test it. This could be done square with large lumber but is a lot stronger with a triangular shape and shouldn't break with even light lumber and a lot of body weight! You could make a few different PVC tubes with different screen sizes and have a stopper ring epoxied in the upper middle of the pipe so you can just insert and remove them in a second to switch to a different mesh. You will need a large adjustable wood drill bit to make the hole for the PVC pipe.

http://i46.tinypic.com/8y6cso.png

 

This should also make much higher density riced BP with small mesh screens. It takes quite a bit of pressure to press a comp straight through them. If you want perfectly consistent BP that works the same every time... This is one way to get it done!

Edited October 25, 2012 by usapyro

[nater]

I have never had a problem pushing a comp through a flat screen. I have had the screens on kitchen colanders rip out from the pressure. It is also important to note for a new person, that those amounts of water are a good staring point, but not always right. Many things can effect how much moisture is needed like humidity and any moisture in your chems to begin with.

[usapyro]

Yea, I start with perfectly dry dessicated chems. Everything is sealed in ziplocks too.

 

I have never been able to properly press a comp through a flat screen... I have the wooden circular ones from skylighter. Afraid they will bust under the pressure. LoL!

 

So, according to what you said all that is probably needed is a PVC pipe with a screen at the end and a plunger... This can probably be done by hand with no need for the wooden setup. Hmmm... Oh, and if anyone is curious how I will attach the screen... It will be around the end then pulled backward and tightened on with a pipe clamp then epoxied in place.

Edited October 25, 2012 by usapyro

[nater]

I have not used those screens from Skylighter. I made mine from scrap 1x3s and some screen from McMaster-Carr. I just wish I had made them larger than 12"x12" so they would be easier to work with.

[nater]

You could try your PVC plunger, althouh I think it would be more work than using a regular screen. I grate the wet BP across the screen more than just pushing it through.

[usapyro]

You see... That is the problem right there. "Grating"... I could never press the comp straight through a screen! So I couldn't see how you could have... If you grate it you get inconsistent grain diameters. One day you might grate it a little more sideways getting thinner grains, and another you grate it with more downward pressure getting thicker grains.

 

With a plunger it doesn't matter if you press just enough or extra hard... It will come out the EXACT same way as long as the compositon is the same.

 

Look at what I do. I hold the opposite side of a strainer and push the composition into the side near me as hard as possible to get decent grains. Pain in the neck really! A plunger setup will be much better and more consistent.

Edited October 25, 2012 by usapyro

[nater]

Not necesarily. It could come out in longer pieces than others.

 

This is why your sort your mesh sizes once it is dried. That way you know the range of powder you are getting.

[usapyro]

In my experience with grating sideways to press it through you get riced BP with grains that are half as thick as the mesh size. Vs the actual mesh size when pressing straight through.

 

That's pretty much the bottom line.

[Algenco]

In my experience with grating sideways to press it through you get riced BP with grains that are half as thick as the mesh size. Vs the actual mesh size when pressing straight through.

 

That's pretty much the bottom line.

 

BS, you'll have noodles the width of your mesh size, guess it's been done wrong for generations

[usapyro]

No, I can show you a picture of BP grated sideways vs pressed through. It's half the diameter.

 

I can also prove this with an image... One second.

[Algenco]

when you complete your list of all pyro methods that have been done wrong for the past Century get back to me.

 

If it isn't turning out right it's you

[usapyro]

The difference in your grain size with grating is very dependent upon the wire size of the mesh multiplied by the number of degrees off horizontal the composition is being grated.

 

http://i50.tinypic.com/2udxpup.png

 

This is an extreme case with large wire size relative to mesh, but everyone who knows anything should instantly see the issues of grating sideways. Notice how the angle of the grating determines the width of the grain.

 

If you could get an INFINITELY thin wire screen there would be no issues with grating. You would get the same thickness at whatever angle you pressed it through.

 

Algenco, Proper meshes for ricing BP that were used traditionally are likely very thin. Now that I think of it... My pyrotechnic screens make better grated BP than store bought mesh's with larger wire sizes... It makes perfect sense now!

 

 

Also, not to mention... Nobody used BP just straight riced without further sorting it by mesh size.

 

I am talking about getting a CONSISTENT product in a SINGLE efficient step which is so much better than how it use to be done.

Edited October 25, 2012 by usapyro

[Algenco]

if you think it's that important you need to make a tiny pump and pump each grain individually and don't forget to weigh them

[usapyro]

If the composition is the same and the moisture level and binder is the same... They will come out the exact same density being pressed straight through the same mesh screen every single time.

 

Variability in the length of the grains isn't a very large influence upon burn speed. Diameter is the key. Eg... A 1x3mm grain and a 1x6mm grain will have only a slight burn rate difference... While a 0.5x3mm grain will have a HUGE burn rate difference from a 1x3mm grain.

 

if you think it's that important you need to make a tiny pump and pump each grain individually and don't forget to weigh them

Edited October 25, 2012 by usapyro

[nater]

Did you ever play with playdough? Algenco speaks the truth. You will end up with something that varies between the size and shape of a grain of rice and a strand of spaghetti. As you extrude your comp, it will break off from the screen at different intervals giving grains of comp that are the same width, but varying in length. How about you start doing things the proven way and get some experience before you think you have an epiphany that nobody else has tried in the past few hundred years.

[marks265]

One thing for certain for me is watching how I push it through the screen. I can have some control over the grain size. By using different movements I can favor more towards smaller or larger grains. I used to keep track of what percentages of what size powder I got. Now I just make the stuff. If I were to manage to have too much of one grain size I can easily run it through the mill again and reprocess it. Pretty rare that I would need to do this.

 

Really don't need to over think this process that's for sure.

[usapyro]

One thing for certain for me is watching how I push it through the screen. I can have some control over the grain size. By using different movements I can favor more towards smaller or larger grains.

 

See... This is the problem right here. This approach is totally inconsistent. You'll never get a perfectly consistent black powder.

 

This is why all commercial black powders are pressed, granulated, and sorted. I think that it may be possible to get a highly consistent powder via extrusion ricing with a precise moisture and binder amount where the powder breaks under it's own weight at a similar length in square cords consistently.

 

 

Mostly smokeless powders were made in these types below, but pelletized/triangular/etc BP was used for a time.

 

Triangular was used as the main type of black powder in cannons for a time.

 

http://en.citizendium.org/images/thumb/3/3b/Unburnt_explosive_grain_shapes.png/350px-Unburnt_explosive_grain_shapes.png

Edited October 25, 2012 by usapyro

[marks265]

See... This is the problem right here.

 

 

 

It is not a problem, it is intended and is what I want. In part by nature and in part by my own hand. You really are asking a lot when trying to reinvent this wheel. In shell making every grain has a use. Do you sell SGRS on ebay or somewhere else perhaps?

[usapyro]

? No... Lots of pyro suppliers sell SGRS. Dextrin works fine but it makes a slower powder.

 

I am not reinventing any wheel. Cord and strip powders have been around for hundreds of years.

 

I am just trying to make an actually "consistent powder" that will launch a shell to the exact same height each time... And won't have faster powder settled to the bottom of the can and slower on top.

 

 

Shake your riced BP lightly for a couple minutes in a container with at least two inches of powder in it and test the speed of the powder on the bottom vs the powder on the top in a star gun. You may just be shocked at the speed difference... With that sideways "grated" powder there can be a 1/3rd height difference in how high it's shooting stars depending if your using the stuff on the top or the bottom of the can.

 

The less angle you press it through the screen at the more consistent it is and the less grain size varies in my experience.

Edited October 25, 2012 by usapyro

[marks265]

Do yourself a favor Usapyro. Come back here and read your post 10 years from now.... naw make it five years. You won't have to tell me what you think of it then because I already know what you will say.

[Mumbles]

Have you ever actually made a successful shell? All I see out of you for the most part are hair-brained ideas and drawings made in MS paint that prove your minimal experience and knowledge of pyrotechnics. Before you try to call them "innovative". Just know that they're mostly about as innovative as underwater basket weaving.

 

You can make relatively round grains by granulating through a screen. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean it's not possible.

 

Even a precision granulated black powder is going to have performance variation. You might as well just lift your shells (if you're capable of making one) with compressed air if you're so concerned about the width of every granule of black powder.

[usapyro]

The issue is that granulating through screens is an extra step that is time intensive.

 

I am looking for both time efficiency and consistency just like with shell pasting.

 

You old timers act like the wasp pasting machines are a horrible evil machine that should have never been invented and we should be back in the dark ages. People shouldn't be allowed to easily make good shells. Well, I have news for you. The industry is advancing and the old issues with things like black powder ricing and shell spheres will be completely solved within a few years.

 

If something can be improved it needs to be improved. If something can be reduced in time and effort required it needs to be done.

 

 

Honestly, have any of you people ever owned or worked in any kind of business? Things that reduce effort free up time... And time is money. Reducing time and effort required to make a product of equivalent quality to what took tons of time before... That is a BIG advantage!

[usapyro]

I am basically going through each stage of hobby pyrotechnics and re-analyzing it for efficiency and time improvements. I do the same thing in all hobbies. You could say my hobby is actually modification and improvement.

 

Like my recent obsession with finding the best charcoal available in this area. Once I have fully tested and figured out which one is optimal... I will never need to think about it again. The fastest and most powerful charcoals will reduce the amount of lift and burst required. That will reduce time and effort. Mission successful!

 

If I think something can still be improved I will always return to it and re-analyze it and see if it can be modified. For three years in a different hobby I always returned to and worked on one tricky little step... After two and a half years I solved it! Then as I had most everything improved and made efficient the best that I could... I got bored and left the hobby.

[usapyro]

I can tell you this though...

 

If my black powder tests tonight don't give a concision winner... Rhamnus Frangula Purshiana or Big Leaf Maple charcoal... I will continue testing them for weeks until it's solved or declared a Tie. I will not do anything else until I know the answer.

 

I don't care in the slightest that all of these charcoals are plenty powerful enough for pyro. RFP, Big Leaf Maple, Paulownia... I want to know exactly which one is most powerful for lifting and exactly which one is fastest.

 

Get where I am coming from? I don't care if something works or not. I just care if it is perfect as possible or can be improved. Can a better result be achieved with less effort? Can a more spectacular effect be achieved with less effort? That is what I am interested in.

 

 

Time, Efficiency, and Improvement.

Edited October 26, 2012 by usapyro

[Algenco]

Quote the post where pasting machine were villanized.

 

In your first post you state "this is the way I do it"

Why didn't you post a pic of those perfect grains intead of an illistration

 

If you had actually tried your idea you would have found it produced long strands not "perfect grains"

You've stated in other threads you don't have time to do it properly, you wasted enough time today to paste several shells

 

Your need for instant gratification shows your level of maturity, maybe you should try model cars instead.

 

Your "obsession" with the best charcoal in your area was a result of an "old timer" providing the imformation provided by another "Old Timer"

Now surely you aren't paying any attention to such old style crap

 

Better learn to crawl before entering a Marathon