Wanted; some figures for 8, 10 and 12" ball shells

[Arthur]

I'm tempted to make a shell or two larger than previously ( 6" max ) largely to play with Kyoko-do (rising effects/pagoda shells ) With the apparent demise of the data tables from pyroguide does anyone care to share their preferred times and sizes for moderately larger shells?

[bob]

pyroguide. com will be back up and running soon

jamsey is now working on it!

[AirCowPeacock]

Thats great news! It was, (and is) an amazing resource; I've missed it.

[Mumbles]

Are you asking for preferred times and sizes for the rising effects?

[Arthur]

Target is a couple of medium sized shells with enough rise time for the effects. So any help with any of the numbers will save lots of tests - which get expensive at 8, 10 or 12"DIA.

 

Initial thoughts were 8"DIA shell of shells with medium size slow gold and some small veline colour. For an 8 probably 7 seconds rise, then break showing colour til the inner shells break just leaving the Slow Gold (or maybe TT ) to stream towards but not reach the ground. Kyoku do to fire at 3, 4, 5, and 6 seconds. Lift say 150 - 180g of 2F ish powder.

[pyrojig]

With 8" or bigger you could consider a shell of shells ( commercial 1.75") . I believe that one of the WPA events a fellow got 12 of those into a 8" ( may have been a 10" shell), but is was a very pleasing effect. Larger shells could use a rising effect of these shells as well. You would need to trim and adjust the timing of these shells though.

 

Just thought I'd throw a couple more ideas out there.

[psyco_1322]

I ended up with 36 inserts in my 8" shell of shells, 26 1.75" colored shells, and 10 1.5" salutes. It's a lot of work for sure.

[marks265]

All you're looking to do is start you're Kyoku-do as soon as you can especially when using time fuse. Then have your last timing shorter than your main fuse for breaking your shell. In a 10 or 12 I have started with as short as 1/2" - 5/8" timing. Here is a 12" with a 12 shot that was timed every 1/8". It was a 20 pound shell had 20 ounces of 2FA under it and ran on a 2-1/4" timer. The last shot had a 2" time fuse.

 

 

The shell of course comes out of the gun pretty darn quick so I start 'em as soon as I can. Shell wall thickness and securing the time fuse are the limiting factors with time fuse. Depending on the device a paste fuse can possibly be used for shorter timings, such as similar to beraq fusing. The more shots - the more awesome!

 

Smaller shells are the same thing just shorter timings.

 

 

Mark

[Arthur]

Mark, many thanks for all that info -just what I needed! I'll aim for that standard later. Initially I'll be satisfied if it all flies and fires!

[Mumbles]

It sort of depends on what I'm doing. For rising flowers I'd probably leave more time between the final rising effect and the main break of the shell. If they're rising salutes, then it probably doesn't matter. For the rising split comets you can probably get them a little closer to the main break as well. On a personal level, I feel like you should allow time for all of the rising effects to develop before the main break. It just happens that rising flowers take a little longer to fully develop.

 

I've done this mostly with 6" and 8" shells. I time my 6" shells around 5 seconds of rise time, and my 8" shells to around 6 or 7 seconds. For rising shells I stopped the effects a full second to second and a half before the main shell broke. I honestly can't remember the timing I used on the one split comet shell I made.

 

One other cool effect I've seen in videos is a progressive timing. Where the rising effects increase in frequency until the shell breaks.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

Thats really long mumbles, Normally a 6" would need about 3.5 sec delay, 8" 4 sec and 12" no more than 6 sec.

 

This one has rising comets starting at 0.6 sec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE1GyDfZkLc

Edited October 23, 2012 by FREAKYDUTCHMEN

[dagabu]

These are waht a lot of the pyros I know use for delay times:

 

 

Time Fuse Delay Times

 

 

Shell Size Delay Time

(in.) (sec.)

 

 

3 3

4 3.5

5 4

6 5

8 6

10 6.5

12 7

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

Jep just follow what someone has written 100 years ago...

[Algenco]

Dag, that's the chart I was looking for

 

I use 4.5sec on a 6"

[dagabu]

Jep just follow what someone has written 100 years ago...

 

Published in 1995 actually. Better idea, why don't we all just bow down to you and let you lead us.

 

HAIL KING FREAKY!!!!

 

Pucking Futz

 

-dag

Edited October 23, 2012 by dagabu

[marks265]

Jep just follow what someone has written 100 years ago...

 

So this means every shell shot and made a hundred years ago uses these exact timings for every effect?

[fredhappy]

#freakydutchman : Man...that is one excellent 12"er, well done!

 

Guys, please understand , freaky made that 12" shell, I think he deserves some respect for that. I do not quite follow this board sometimes. Always lots of talk, then someone takes the time to post a personal picture or clip and it gets largely ignored . How about a bit of positive feedback if someone actually makes the effort to make these threads come to live with pictures/clips instead of just talking/copy pasting stuff.

 

#marks265: those were excellent rising effects, I liked the timings a lot.

Edited October 23, 2012 by fredhappy

[Mumbles]

I really only build shells for my own personal satisfaction. I find ball shells breaking around their apex to be the most pleasing to me, so I time them accordingly. They're just timing approximations anyway. I use 1.5" of timefuse on a 6" and 1.75" of timefuse on an 8". I use a little more on shells with really long hangtime stars.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and preferences. Ball shells are still totally inferior to cylinders anyway.

[pyrojig]

That was a nice shell indeed. I must say the inner petal was timed very nice and went out like a light ....right on time!! Were those brocade stars ? KING FREAKY .... ( a 12" shell is no small task) Nice rising effect. I have still yet to make a rising comet effect . They are amazing when done right!!

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

So this means every shell shot and made a hundred years ago uses these exact timings for every effect?

If you want to interpret my sarcastic post this way, sure.

 

I see many misconceptions or other views taken as the only truth. I seen enough really nice shells in my life, maltese, spanish, italian none of them had such long delays for sure.

I also think it's almost impossible to shoot a 8" to desired hight and let it rice for 6 seconds, at least I have never seen it in shows.

Edited October 24, 2012 by FREAKYDUTCHMEN

[californiapyro]

here's the real question, is what's the optimal height of a shell? Based on this we can find the optimal timing (the apogee of the shell)

[dagabu]

here's the real question, is what's the optimal height of a shell? Based on this we can find the optimal timing (the apogee of the shell)

 

Thats a tough question to answer actually, it is wholly dependant on the lift, velocity, expected height, stars used etc. Take a horse tail shell for example, you want it to break 2/3 the way up so that the stars are ejected and still flying upward, the same for multi break cylinder shells, the first break happens on its way up.

 

I can give you the published height but the actual height should be established according to the spread of the stars. I shoot for 800 feet with my cut star willow shells, they like to burn a long time. I also shoot for 500 feet with my single color shells since they don't break very large before the stars go out.

 

 

 

 

Shell Burst Height

 

 

Shell Size Burst Height

(in) (mm) (ft) (m)

 

 

3 76 400 120

4 102 500 150

5 127 600 180

6 152 700 210

8 203 900 270

10 254 1050 320

12 305 1150 350

 

The height above the ground for which a shell should typically break. Rule of thumb: 100ft plus 100ft for each inch of shell diameter.

[marks265]

If you want to interpret my sarcastic post this way, sure.

 

I see many misconceptions or other views taken as the only truth.

 

 

That's my whole point Freaky.

 

You may reply with your post being sarcastic but there are those who may take it to heart. A lot of information is "for reference" only because not one pyro duplicates another in practice, material, or desired effect 100 percent of the time. Dagabu flops out a bunch of numbers with no experience behind it except for what "A lot of the pyros I know use"

 

Arthur asked to "share their preferred times and sizes for moderately larger shells?" You did add your experience with an example. You and I gave a "perferred" example that Arthur had asked for and dagabu says " ah, ya my buddie down the road says..."

 

No beef with you Freaky just an observation on garbage that gets repeated and how things get twisted from what the original poster has asked, and not just here.

 

Nice shell by the way!

[dagabu]

Not true Mark, I share published lists so that the data I share isn't one persons opinion but established experiential data.

 

I'm not sure why you say I have no experience, seems to me that having built a hundred ball shells from 8" down and at least 200 canister shells ranging from 5" three breaks down to 1.62" singles, a good thousand rockets, all in less then four years sounds like plenty of experience to me.

 

-dag

[marks265]

 

 

ball shells from 8" down

 

-dag

 

With that said you don't qualify to post to this thread. I think you should learn how to read and listen before you post anymore. Start with reading the topic over and over. Once you have that nailed down, read Arthur's start of this thread until it sinks in. If you don't get it still you may want to quit playing with pyro while your still alive. If you do finally get my point, well, congratulations. You have just completed a first grade reading fundamental.

 

Mark