What is the best glue for cardboard/paper tubes rolling

[Col]

The formula uses 2 types of white dex, high solubility and low solubilty. the idea is just to disregard the difference in type and just add your dex so you have the same total (combined) weight percentage. Cant remember the percentages offhand, but if it says 40% (high solubility dex) and 5% (low solubility dex) you`d just add 45% of yours

[dagabu]

I only have the high solubility kind and no plans for looking for the other. I am waiting on the wallpaper paste now to start tests, I think I will do a white glue and water (75:25), white dex with wheat paste (not sure of the ratio yet), wallpaper paste and just wheat paste alone.

[Col]

lol thats why i suggested adding the extra 5% or whatever it is of your high solubility kind. You cant add what you dont have

 

Formulation A (modded)

Water: 49.7 pbw
White dextrin: 44.7
Borax: 4.0

Cook to 85°C f or 20-30 mins; cool to room
temperature and add 50% Aqueous NaOH 1.2

Edited December 7, 2018 by Col

[dagabu]

FINE!!! Dagnabbit!

 

PBW- Powdered Brewery Wash?

 

OK, water, dex, borax.... does it matter what kind? Add 50% Aqueous lye to the batch and stir.

 

What next?

[Col]

I guess Percentage By Weight I figure borax is borax. Cook, cool and then add the 1.2% of 50% sodium hydroxide solution and that should be it.

[dagabu]

Hang on there, I missed the 1.2%, is that 1.2 parts of the 100 parts total weight?

 

49 parts water

44.7 parts dex

4 parts Borax

185 F for 20-30 minutes

cool to room temp

add 1.2 parts of a 50/50 Aqueous Lye solution

 

Stir and serve?

[Col]

Aye, 1.2% by weight`added when the glue has cooled to room temp. The total ends up at around 99.6% the oddment is the antifoam and preservative which arent essential for the test.

[dagabu]

ROMAN Pro-880 seems to be a bust. I will dilute it according to the instructions and try it again but it will not brush or roll on without elongating the paper by several millimeters and wrinkles while rolling. Not at all friendly as is.

[Col]

Seems like your having as much luck as me. The wickes website`s 2 ready mix in stock translated into none in stock and a wasted trip

Diluting will help it spread easier but the extra water might make the wrinkling worse.

[dagabu]

I did a quick and dirty check myself on water only wrapping, I saturated the sheet with a sprayer and rolled it in, the sheet elongated the same and rolled up the same. I loose nothing diluting the 880.

 

I did find that a 90% white glue to water ratio made the paper a lot harder to align and had zero slip. You cannot roll the paper tighter with high solids in white glue. I went to a 75% white glue ratio to see if I can find a happy medium but I may have to bite the bullet and make a rolling machine that brushed the glue on as its rolled up and not saturate the paper.

[Col]

If plain water is no different it wont hurt to give it a go. Aligning lightweight kraft paper covered with a high tack glue is pretty much a one shot deal. I use a couple of speed squares to align the semi rigid calendered sheets which just slide down a board using gravity..As long as i`m close to square, the paper will track pretty straight.

I`m not a fan of applying glue as the tube is being rolled, it can get very messy, especially at the end

 

 

 

[dagabu]

Sucess! 1:1 water and Roman 880 worked fine. The wife and granddaughter are using the TV where I have my video of rolling one up, I will post it once I have access to the TV.

[Mixer]

As I have access to a paper tensile testing machine - I thought I would do a few tests between Kraft only/ Kraft with PVA+5% water/ and Kraft with RMWP. (Ready Mixed Wallpaper Paste)

 

Each test was with 2 strips of Kraft 4 inches long in the perpendicular (weaker) direction to the grain per 1 cm width.

 

Results are as follows ;

 

2 unpasted strips together failed at 28lbs 4ozs.

2 PVA pasted strips failed at 29lbs 4 ozs.

2 neat RMWP pasted strips failed at 35lbs 5 ozs.

 

I think anyone doing a burst test on (rocket) tubes made with PVA would be a little disappointed with the figures.

 

Out of interest I may do a few further tests with other glues.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Mixer

[dagabu]

It should be interesting to see if those numbers carry over to the tube burst strength testing. The wallpaper paste seems to have a few characteristics not shared with the PVA.

 

When applying it 50/50 to the paper, it will spread out with the roller well but the paper seems to absorb it faster making it harder to cover the same surface area with the same amount of fluid.

 

The paper is repositionable easily with no ill effect. As long as the paste is not worked into the paper before rolling with the board, the tube may be unwound and rerolled.

 

The surface of the paper is rough when dry, not smooth like the PVA.

[Mixer]

It should be interesting to see if those numbers carry over to the tube burst strength testing. The wallpaper paste seems to have a few characteristics not shared with the PVA.

 

When applying it 50/50 to the paper, it will spread out with the roller well but the paper seems to absorb it faster making it harder to cover the same surface area with the same amount of fluid.

 

The paper is repositionable easily with no ill effect. As long as the paste is not worked into the paper before rolling with the board, the tube may be unwound and rerolled.

 

The surface of the paper is rough when dry, not smooth like the PVA.

 

The numbers are here Dag - from my Tutorial post of 2 years ago using the same Kraft and paste as then. Although I have made a few minor improvements to my method since then so I expect the burst strengths to be higher now. I`ll test a few tubes soon.

 

The 3/4" x 1/8" wall tubes all failed at 7,487psi.

3/4" x 3/16" wall tubes all failed at 8,755psi.

[Col]

Had my daughter pick a tub of the ready mix from a different wickes branch while visiting friends.

[dagabu]

Thank you Mix. I did cut the tubes to length this morning and found two serious issues that will have to be dealt with before continuing with this paste.

 

1. The shrinkage of subsequent layers is subpar, the layers on two tubes delaminated to the point where the first layer pulled out completely.

 

2. The adhesive effect is nominal at best, rolling layers on to already dry tubes produces gaps between layers.

 

Going forward, I will try once again to calendar the three sheets together and roll up tubes that way.

[Mixer]

This is baffling Dag - something seems seriously wrong here Without seeing your process, and not knowing the precise details it`s hard to comment - but I do think adding water is a mistake. I also think that calendering by hand is a mistake too, as you have more trapped glue this way. It seems that the paper is still expanding after it is rolled!

 

Is it possible to see the rolling video you mentioned?

Edited December 16, 2018 by Mixer

[Mixer]

Had my daughter pick a tub of the ready mix from a different wickes branch while visiting friends.

paste.jpg

Aha that looks familiar!

[Col]

The 1:1 dilution will halve the strength of the adhesive. You might get a better result using a sugar solution to dilute the glue. Dissolve 10g of sugar in hot water and top up to 100ml. The sugar binds the water so it cant seperate from the glue. If you leave a syrup standing, the water doesnt rise to the top

[Col]

Aha that looks familiar!

Aye, didnt expect i`d have to get it from a branch 30miles away

[dagabu]

Sadly, calendaring by hand will be the only option I have.

 

I disagree with the adhesive quality, full strength, 90% And 50% all result in the same delamination.

 

Hand-rolling is my only option at this point so I will continue to find a way to get all three sheets to stick together.

[Mixer]

I think the adhesive quality and the delamination are two separate issues.

 

If you are getting delamination with the paste at full strength - then it could be one/or more of the following;

 

 

Unsuitable white Kraft. ( a tensile test may indicate what quality it is)

 

Rolling up dimpled strips too soon (before paper has expanded)

Tubes not fully dried (they can take up to a week to dry)

 

Too much paste on strips.

 

Loose rolling up.

 

Too hard final roll.

 

Adding water ( a definite no no!)

Edited December 16, 2018 by Mixer

[dagabu]

I have two absolute musts for tubes: They must be able to withstand normal NEPT burst pressures and they must fit the tube support I have for 1 lb rockets. PVA meets the size requirement, I will see in an hour or so if they meet the burst requirements but PVA meets the support and no voids issues well.

[dagabu]

Mixer, I reject your assertions on both water and the kraft paper. I will use diluted adhesives to meet my viscosity needs and I will use the white kraft I have. Lets find out what works to make good tubes within these limitations.