Finally, maybe, i've found the coleman fuel... is it the mineral turpentine?

[pyrosailor99]

Hi all!

 

I'm again on whistle experiments and this year i want to try with the official recipes using the coleman fuel...

unfortunately coleman fuel is not sold where i live and i was searching for a subsitution... after many search on internet i've found it is also called White Gas or White Spirit

and following this link (footer notes) it is also called Mineral Turpentine...

http://en.wikipedia....eral_turpentine

 

I can buy it in my painting store... and usually it is used to clean brushes from dry paint... it is very liquid just as plain water...

 

i can also buy the turpentine essence.. that is more expensive but also have oil consistence.

 

is this the right product to use in the whistle comp (with Sodium benzoate) ?

 

 

 

thanks

Edited October 13, 2012 by pyrosailor99

[mikeee]

I purchased Coleman Fuel at Wallmart.

Sporting Goods Section.

 

Mikeee

[pyrosailor99]

thanks very much for your reply, but when i say i can't find coleman fuel it's not because i never tried to search where i could buy a common product but because i'm sure i can't find it in the near 500km around and i have no other choice that try to find a replacement product... i'm not in US...

 

;-)

[Algenco]

It's fuel for camping stoves/lanterns, have you tried a camping supply/sport section.

I think it actuallt naptha

 

yep

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_fuel

Edited October 13, 2012 by Algenco

[dynomike1]

I have got 4 or 5 gals around here somewhere. If i find it i'll save it now that i have a use for it. I might have used it all making Anfo.. Edited October 13, 2012 by dynomike1

[Arthur]

Do you have the fluid used as "petrol" in lighters -think Zippo!

[Mumbles]

In the case of whistle fuel, it's just a solvent. Anything capable of dissolving the oil or petroleum jelly will suffice. I've heard of people using what you describe. I usually see it called paint thinner, mineral spirits, mineral naphtha, or something like that. It works just fine, however I believe it will take longer to evaporate. You can usually tell when it is totally evaporated based on the odor.

[TheSidewinder]

If I remember right, "Mineral Turpentine" is a petroleum product, whereas "Gum Spirits of Turpentine" (or similar name) is an extract of certain evergreen species, but either one would work. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong, though.)

 

But last time I checked, the cost of the organic variety was damned expensive compared to the petroleum variety.

[RealmMaster]

Shellite (Australia), also known as white gas (North America), white spirit (outside the UK) or Coleman fuel

[usapyro]

I use mineral oil instead of petroleum jelly when making whistle mix. You just need a solvent for the petroleum jelly or mineral oil. The faster evaporating the better!!!

[pyrosailor99]

anyone ever had success pressing little whistles without any gauge?

actually my first step (thoward the final result) is obtaining little whistle that have a sound... now i'm not interested in having flying whistle, so i will simply press it in the tube without any core.

unfortunately my press (a raw 5ton jack between 2 iron block) haven't any gauge to measure the pressing force. have i any chance to get some good result?

[FlaMtnBkr]

I've made small 3/8" whistles that will whistle with just body weight pressing them. I have also rammed small ones but that is a big no no. I wore protective clothing and did it with the expectation it would light, though it was only a few grams of whistle. They made good sound too.

 

As long as your chems are of a sufficiently small particle size, they will sound good. The finer they are the more power and better the sound.

 

An arbor press should be fairly easy to obtain I would think anywhere in the world. Also not very expensive and should work fine on whistle rockets up to 1/2" unless you get a real big press then you can probably go bigger.

[pyrosailor99]

I've made small 3/8" whistles that will whistle with just body weight pressing them. I have also rammed small ones but that is a big no no. I wore protective clothing and did it with the expectation it would light, though it was only a few grams of whistle. They made good sound too.

 

As long as your chems are of a sufficiently small particle size, they will sound good. The finer they are the more power and better the sound.

 

An arbor press should be fairly easy to obtain I would think anywhere in the world. Also not very expensive and should work fine on whistle rockets up to 1/2" unless you get a real big press then you can probably go bigger.

 

Wow, this message give me much hope...

You tell me that you can make audible whistle with only body weight press... this is incredible for me...

In experiments of last years i pressed the whistle mix until the paper tube (2,5cm ID 6cm long) started to have rifts. but got no sound ... Only one test gave me a little little sound in the mid of the burning (1 sec on 6 seconds burning time)...

Have you used Na-benzoate or some other recipe?

 

For the particle size of the chems... K-perch is fine like flour, Na-benz ha some particle rougher , it's finest that flour but contain small grains that you can crack between fingers...

In some experiments of last year i also tried to put Na-benz in a blender for some minute... i noticed that small particle wasn't become smaller.

Red iron oxide is just fine like flour...

 

To reach my target i'm decomposing the problem in little sub-steps... i'm wondering if i could obtain a good whistle also without red-iron-oxide ...

i would try to make the simples whistle i can do so i can try and retry experiments with fewest variables number as possible and discover what error/problem i have in my procedure.

 

This year anyway i will try to mill the NaBenz in my ballmill... hoping for a finest powder... anyway i noticed that NaBenz tend to clump very much!

 

PS, for me a good result for this year would be obtain this whitsltes:

http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/gallery/image/1201-4-whistling-serpent-mine/

(awithout white tail... i only want that wonderful sound!)

Edited October 14, 2012 by pyrosailor99

[Mumbles]

If you want to try to make functional whistles, I'd try to use a smaller diameter tube. Your force will be concentrated in a smaller area resulting in better compression. 2.5cm wide is pretty wide. I'd go no larger than 12mm, especially if you want to use them as inserts. The other important thing is to leave some empty room in the end of the insert you're going to light. This helps to make good sound. The tubes I typically use are around 12mm x 50mm long. About half of the tube is unfilled.

 

I would keep the iron oxide in there. It makes the sound better than plain whistle in my opinion.

 

Sodium Benzoate can be tricky to grind. I've heard cooling it in the freezer before grinding in something like a blender or coffee grinder type device can work. Regardless, you should screen the product and only use the fine material. I got the best results if it at least passes a 100 mesh screen. Airmilled is ideal, but can be hard to find and expensive.

[pyrojig]

@ Mumbles

 

Why do you claim it is hard to grind? I mill mine in a ball mill. But never tried a coffee grinder for reducing it.

[Mumbles]

That is mostly based on experiences of others that have been relayed to me. I've nearly always used potassium benzoate which is really nice to work with. Many have reported sodium benzoate to be somewhat waxy and difficult to reduce. I've seen several people say they can ball mill it very easily. Some say that it results it heavy caking for them. It sounds like it depends on some other factor, perhaps temperature or supplier.

[pyrojig]

I misread the prior post. I was referring to potassium Benzoate. I'm sorry for the hasty response . I believe that you are correct in your speculations.

I too have heard of folks reducing the sodium benzoate in a blender full of cold water as well.

[AirCowPeacock]

Maybe dessicating it before hand is needed? The only thing I use whistle for is booster, but I just mill mine in a coffe grinder. ~90% gets to <100 mesh (estimate) with about 10% coarser up to 20 mesh.

[Mumbles]

Sodium Benzoate is still too soluble in water for that to make a lot of sense. I don't know about cold water, but at RT it has a solubility of about 63g/100mL of water, and seems to change relatively little as the water warms. Alcohol might work though. The solubility is between 1.3 and 2g/100mL in Ethanol depending on how dry it is. The coleman's fuel that was originally talked about in this thread would work too, but with it and ethanol fumes become an issue.

 

http://www.emeraldmaterials.com/epm/kalama/micms_doc_admin.display?p_customer=FISKALAMA&p_name=PRODBULL-SODIUMBENZOATE.PDF

[pyrosailor99]

That's interesting...

Do you mean that coleman fuel (or some other paint thinner) could work also to dissolve the Sodium benzoate?

This could this simplify the recipe avoiding to mill the Na-Benz.

Do you think, in this case, i could add, separately, paint thinner to Na-Benz, then add this (maybe creamy) moisture to the mix K-perch+FeO(3)+(Vaseline+PaintThinner), make a big dough and then dry the riced granules?

[Algenco]

That's interesting...

Do you mean that coleman fuel (or some other paint thinner) could work also to dissolve the Sodium benzoate?

This could this simplify the recipe avoiding to mill the Na-Benz.

Do you think, in this case, i could add, separately, paint thinner to Na-Benz, then add this (maybe creamy) moisture to the mix K-perch+FeO(3)+(Vaseline+PaintThinner), make a big dough and then dry the riced granules?

 

yep, I mix all te ingredients then add coleman fuel, let it set awhile and knead the mix until no white "smears" appear (gallon Ziplock bag)

cut the bag opwen and let it dry some, push through screen

[Mumbles]

Quite the opposite PyroSailor. The coleman's fuel or paint thinner wont dissolve the granules. This has the benefit of breaking up clumps. I should probably make it clear that a non-solvent will not break down granule size, but it will help to break up agglomerated clumps. You will still need to have the benzoate ground to a very fine powder, but caking will not be as big of an issue.

 

What I meant originally is that you might be able to suspend the benzoate in a non-solvent fluid to assist in grinding.

[pyrosailor99]

Thanks Mumble! Got it!

So, the point is that :

1. to help the grinding procedure i can add plain water in the mill (or in the blender), then dry it (but i hate wetting chems and then dry it, never got good result, so i will first try the standard ballmill method).
   
2. Coleman fuel or other paint-thinner will help me in mixing the total dough as it reduce tension between grains and avoid Na-benz caking.
   

Just a question again on the Coleman fuel... i will try the turpentine (the paint-thinner liquid just like the water) until i find some other white-gas or a much similar product.... but i know for experience that the turpentine will corrode any plastic container it will touch... so put it in a zip-lock bag is not realistic for me... it would melt the bag just in seconds, so i will try to mix the composition in a metal container (such like tomatoes containers)...

The questions are:

A - could be there some problem in mixing the comp in the metal container?

B - could be there some problem in using a paint-thinner that can dissolve plastic materials? is there some danger on using this paint-thinner on that mix?

 

thanks

[Mumbles]

You can try water, but it's at your own discretion. I'd be worried that sodium benzoate is so soluble in water that you'd lose substantial amounts of it, and when drying it, any remaining benzoate solids would fuse back together eliminating any benefits. Ideally you want to use something it's not soluble in to avoid this.

 

You might actually be surprised with paint thinner and plastics. It will dissolve many plastics. However polyethylene is pretty resistant to nearly all solvents. Most plastic bags designed for food storage are made from LDPE. I think you'll be just fine. It'd be worth a quick test though just to be sure.

[Col]

Panel wipe (Napthalene) is a lot cheaper than Coleman`s fuel. Having said that, i use acetone/mineral oil for whistle and blend it in resealable freezer bags...havent had one melt yet I`ve never had much joy ball milling Na Benz with lead, stainless or ceramic media even after drying it. Its quicker to throw small amounts in a coffee grinder and then push it through a 120 mesh screen.