Alternative whistle mixes

[brimstoned]

I want it blue and I want it to whistle!

I'm still waiting for the salicylic acid to arrive.

 

I plan on testing several compositions:

 

1. Ammonium salicylate

Potassium perchlorate

Copper oxide

Chlorowax

 

2. Ammonium salicylate

Ammonium perchlorate

Copper oxide

Chlorowax

 

3. Ammonium salicylate

Ammonium perchlorate

Copper phthalocyanine

Chlorowax

 

I'm still running numbers as to the mixture ratios; probably around 72/24/3/1.

Has anyone tried similar mixtures?

Did I miss any incompatibilities?

 

Added note: You guys think AF charcoal is a pain to work with...Copper phthalocyanine gets everywhere. Some must have got on my shirtsleeve, wife came home and about busted a gut laughing at my blue nose and forehead! Fortunately, the toxicity is about nil.

Edited October 7, 2012 by brimstoned

[WSM]

I want it blue and I want it to whistle!

I'm still waiting for the salicylic acid to arrive.

 

I plan on testing several compositions:

 

1. Ammonium salicylate

Potassium perchlorate

Copper oxide

Chlorowax

 

2. Ammonium salicylate

Ammonium perchlorate

Copper oxide

Chlorowax

 

3. Ammonium salicylate

Ammonium perchlorate

Copper phthalocyanine

Chlorowax

 

I'm still running numbers as to the mixture ratios; probably around 72/24/3/1.

Has anyone tried similar mixtures?

Did I miss any incompatibilities?

 

Have you considered making potassium salicylate and using it with ammonium perchlorate and copper carbonate, etc.? There may be problems with the copper salts catalyzing the breakdown of the oxidizers and speeding the reaction, changing the character of the whistle. They may CATO instead of the desired reaction. Perhaps using a less optimized mixture will perform better with the copper salts added. A lot of work is ahead of you, enjoy it and please share the results here.

 

Thank You.

 

WSM

[brimstoned]

Well, for tests I'm going to be using 2 3/4 by 3/8 ID, 1/8 wall tubes, three grams comp pressed.

A CATO might ring the ears but won't be TOO destructive. Eventually, if one of these prove feasible, I'd like to

use the comp in 4-ounce rockets. I'll video the tests as they are completed!

[brimstoned]

Progress:

I've been treating salicylic acid directly with NH4OH sol., on the rational that while the acid is only slightly soluble in water,

the ammonium salt dissolves at a rate of 111gm per 100gm water. So far, about 2 litres of ammonia has dissolved 250 gm of the acid

and the ammonia odour is greatly reduced. I will be allowing room temperature evaporation; this could take a little while.

[MDH]

Hi,

 

This will be my first post on Mumbles' forum. I hope he does not mind it being here, but he is aware of who I am from the UK pyrotechnics society forums, so I am not just jumping in as a somebody "new" to pyrotechnics (Though with this being said, I have been on a hiatus from the hobby for some time as I move my production to a new location that is already well ventilated and will save me a lot of money).

 

There are a few problems. The first is that ammonium perchlorate must oxidize itself in the process of oxidizing other materials. For this reason it is a poor candidate of whistling mixtures, which produce an oscillating vibrational burn because of the energy required for and given by combustion of the components. The energy in a small given space is very important. Too low and you will just have a very gaseous burn; In plain English, combustion must be "punchy", but also uneven like a strobe, which is why some strobe rockets appear to "Whistle" as they ascend, and whistle does this at a high frequency.

 

Even potassium sorbate does this to some extent, my theory is that the loose organic atoms on the outer molecule combust producing a smoulder phase, and then the chain itself is broken under the energy of this event at once, causing a burst of energy and reducing the oxidizer, which supplies oxygen the next smoulder event. The more this is distorted and interrupted with bazillions if actively oxidizing atoms that produce gas, solids, etc., the less likely you are to recieve perfect vibrational burning and a whistle sound.

 

Ammonium salts will not do this because they do not require very much energy to combust, and also demand additional oxygen. This will result in a very gaseous burn instead of a "punchy" one.

 

There are a few articles on why aromatic hydrocarbons are good for whistles, and why a direct, powerful and relatively unstable oxidant that does not donate anything but oxygen to the combustion of the mixture are important. Red and Green whistles have been made from self-oxidizing aromatic hydrocarbons but I think that it falls into high explosive territory for this reason, and I will stop there.

[brimstoned]

Thank you for the input, MDH.

If the project does not work out, at least I will have a clue why.

My primary goal was to create a whistle mix that had a "colourless" flame, then use metal oxide catalysts

and chlorowax to provide the spectral effect. Next step is creating the mixture and testing for sensitivity...if a steel plate/mallet tap makes a bang

with 10 mg's, I'm not going to "press" the issue.

Edited October 15, 2012 by brimstoned

[Seymour]

Using normal Potassium salt (usualy K benz) whistle, you have what is very close to a colourless flame. It's got a bit of K colour going on, but it's really dim compared to most pyro mixes, especially when comparing against Sodium salt flames, and being lilac it's noy going to hurt blue a lot anyway.

 

I would like to think you can add some of the right clorine donor and copper source and get a passable blue, and a passable whistle, but I am speculating.

 

MDH, Welcome, and a nice first post here

Edited October 19, 2012 by Seymour

[brimstoned]

Thank you, Seymour!

The ammonium salicylate still has some drying to do...then on to the testing.

This material has a light but interesting bouquet; phenol and old socks.

 

Update: Perhaps the AS was not quite dry enough, after three hours milling there was no powder but my media looked like rockhard rolled stars!

I had to dissolve the stuff off with lots of hot water. Will dry more and try again.

Edited October 23, 2012 by brimstoned

[brimstoned]

Composition #2 & #3 are a wash, both produced a very good blue but were nowhere near brisk enough

to either fly or whistle; I will be working on #1 shortly.

[FrankRizzo]

There are a few problems. The first is that ammonium perchlorate must oxidize itself in the process of oxidizing other materials. For this reason it is a poor candidate of whistling mixtures, which produce an oscillating vibrational burn because of the energy required for and given by combustion of the components. The energy in a small given space is very important. Too low and you will just have a very gaseous burn; In plain English, combustion must be "punchy", but also uneven like a strobe, which is why some strobe rockets appear to "Whistle" as they ascend, and whistle does this at a high frequency.

 

The whistle that you hear during a strobe rocket's ascent is from the whiste fuel booster used as the first few inches of the fuel grain. Strobe fuel itself does not have the impulse necessary to lift the rocket from the launch tube. ;-)

[psyco_1322]

I did some testing using K benz based whistle, adding colorants and chlorine to it to try and get color. I was adding AP and CuOxy in different ratios to try and get a blue that would whistle. I could get a light blue, but it wouldn't whistle and it was slow. Then when it was whistling, it was hardly there and the color was a white-ish flame with a hint of blue. I had videos, but I can't remember if I deleted them or not.

 

 

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B57m_4Zj6a4xU1Y4a3VoREFndDg

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B57m_4Zj6a4xYzFmWC1GRXBxUzQ

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B57m_4Zj6a4xazVROW9XTGRaY1E

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B57m_4Zj6a4xcE8yb1RManJNaWs

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B57m_4Zj6a4xdEx5dzBLeE1xemM

Edited November 10, 2012 by psyco_1322

[AirCowPeacock]

Perhaps a blue whistle is inacheiveable because the energy neccicary for whistle is so great you will always produce enough blackbody radiation to wash out any blue.