The Bucket Cell - Start to Finish

[WSM]

Another benefit from having "free" power (after infrastructure costs), is pure water production.

I already planned to build an independent water system, and the original idea was to purify tap water using an RO system with a DI filter attached. Then the realization occurred to me, "Why buy impure water from the public source and then incur the expense and effort required to purify it, when I can use "free" electricity to draw pure water from the atmosphere?!!".

So my current thinking (I know, corny joke) is to will drop into storage containers for use. I can control the amount of water stored with redundant float switches to cut off the system when the cistern is full.

Genius! I wish I came up with the idea myself, but at least I recognized the value of the idea when I saw it. The idea of having an off-grid power source just keeps getting better and better!

WSM

 

 

The first step is to have my friend and I coordinate our schedules to mount the panels and run the wiring into the workshop. After that critical step, I can handle the rest solo as time and resources allow.

 

I find it critical to add in switching options to safely open portions of the circuit for servicing the system without handling live wires from the batteries or panels. Fortunately, I'm experienced with these types of things. The main thing is to do the proper research to assure the components are adequate for the applications they're planned for.

 

It's all coming along!

 

WSM

Edited April 10, 2023 by WSM

[WSM]

The first step is to have my friend and I coordinate our schedules to mount the panels and run the wiring into the workshop. After that critical step, I can handle the rest solo as time and resources allow.

I find it critical to add in switching options to safely open portions of the circuit for servicing the system without handling live wires from the batteries or panels. Fortunately, I'm experienced with these types of things. The main thing is to do the proper research to assure the components are adequate for the applications they're planned for.

It's all coming along!

WSM

 

 

Step one accomplished (Thank you, Friend)!

 

There's certainly more to do and the major challenge is saving enough for the battery bank ($$$, maybe THAT'S why they call it a BANK )!!!

 

With that step done, my source of power will be nearly completed. After that, I need to clean and organize my property and get set up to continue my research. More details to follow...

 

WSM

[Arthur]

What battery voltage do people suggest? 12v and there are lots of automotive accessories, 24v and there ae a few truck accessories, 48v and there is nothing but inverters for providing mains, but 48v has to keep wire sizes down.

[WSM]

What battery voltage do people suggest? 12v and there are lots of automotive accessories, 24v and there ae a few truck accessories, 48v and there is nothing but inverters for providing mains, but 48v has to keep wire sizes down.

 

 

These points are true, and a lot of options need to be weighed.

 

In my case, due to the time, resources and commitment required to make it happen, I chose to go "all in" and went "top shelf" as to the materials and design of my solar project.

 

My solar system is:

• off grid (not connected to the public utility)
• using high-end solar panels (450 Watt, mono crystal & commercial grade)
• using a high-end controller/inverter to maintain optimal battery health & life
• outputs clean 120/240 Vac power
• planned to utilize LiFePo batteries (till better technology is developed and available for reasonable cost)
• panels are placed in an unconventional manner in hopes of optimizing power output
• able to be moved/relocated if I change my situation
• can be modified or expanded as power needs change or increase

I went for the 48 Vdc system so I can use the inverted power (120 and 240 Volts AC) for any and all of my electric power needs from here on. Yes, I still have the electric service connected to my home, but I may transition some of my "free" solar power to cover part of our home needs, and minimize our dependance on high cost (over priced) utility power.

 

The best part is by doing it myself (with my friend's generous help) I'm doing this for about 20% of what it would cost to hire a local solar contract for. I owe my friend a serious debt of gratitude for his making this possible!

 

WSM

[Arthur]

Sadly at 51.5 North solar is low yield. I'm assembling (from scraps!) a mains fed standby system that will keep the lights on and freezer cold for 24 ish hours. Maybe some solar to keep the batteries topped off daily. So far it's a mix of 12 and 24v systems.

 

Don't rely on an automotive alternator unless you can run it at 3000 rpm or more. They totally rely on their internal fan for cooling -no fan and they melt.

[WSM]

Sadly at 51.5 North solar is low yield. I'm assembling (from scraps!) a mains fed standby system that will keep the lights on and freezer cold for 24 ish hours. Maybe some solar to keep the batteries topped off daily. So far it's a mix of 12 and 24v systems.

Don't rely on an automotive alternator unless you can run it at 3000 rpm or more. They totally rely on their internal fan for cooling -no fan and they melt.

 

I have the advantage of being at about 33.8 degrees North Latitude, and solar definitely works.

 

I don't have the system anywhere near completion, BUT I see the panels have decent potential, even on an overcast (cloudy) day!

 

When I acquire the batteries and set up the complete system, I'll share the results, especially regarding running a cell on it.

 

WSM

[WSM]

Don't rely on an automotive alternator unless you can run it at 3000 rpm or more. They totally rely on their internal fan for cooling -no fan and they melt.

 

 

If you're using an automotive alternator at lower speeds, I imagine a low wattage 12 Vdc computer type fan can make up for the lack of high RPMs. The sacrifice of part of the power produced is offset by the ability to run at lower speeds while keeping a 12 Vdc battery system charged.

 

There are many ways to do these things, and also overcome the down sides as well.

 

WSM

[WSM]

The solar project has run into a snag. After the panels and controller/inverter were installed, a grumpy neighbor (who happens to work for the city) reported me to the public works department. It appears one needs a permit to install solar where I live (most people are unaware of this detail, even if it's totally off-grid). [Oh the joys of living in a Liberal Paradise! ]

 

In for a penny, in for a pound. I'm winding my way through the permitting process. When the dust settles, I hope to concentrate on getting back to having fun researching electrochemistry and other projects!

 

WSM

[WSM]

When I acquire the batteries and set up the complete system, I'll share the results, especially regarding running a cell on it.

WSM

 

 

As I was biding my time in the search for adequate batteries for my solar project, I came across a significant sale (25% off, plus free shipping!!!) by a solar product company and applied my "magic plastic" to purchase two 100 Ah 48Vdc rack mount LiFePo batteries, which will be wired in parallel to provide 48Vdc 200 Ah's of storage!

 

As I'm waiting for delivery of the batteries, I need to acquire a cutoff switch for the battery bank (for system servicing purposes), similar to the cutoff switch already in place between the panels and the controller/inverter.

 

I'm getting ever closer to electrical energy independence in my workshop for the next 15 plus years. There's lots of exciting prospects ahead for my projects, plus the comfort of knowing we won't be in dire straits if/when the power company fails us !

 

WSM

Edited November 11, 2023 by WSM

[Arthur]

I'm looking at the practicalities of running a home battery. Charge from mains at cheap (night) rate and use from battery during the daytime, maybe some solar for emergencies but I have a N/S ridge so miss the peak solar from a roof array.

[WSM]

I'm looking at the practicalities of running a home battery. Charge from mains at cheap (night) rate and use from battery during the daytime, maybe some solar for emergencies but I have a N/S ridge so miss the peak solar from a roof array.

 

 

If you charge the batteries all night (long winter nights), I'll bet the batteries alone will be adequate during the day and you could run your cell 24/7. I suggest the batteries be LiFePo rather than lead acid, and would expect the long life (>5 X) and vastly greater number of charging cycles would more than offset the cost difference, plus they weigh considerably less (about 1/3 what lead acid weigh for a given Ah rating).

 

With the right (high quality) solar panels facing E/W, your charge won't peak as high, but it WILL charge longer through the day for perhaps a greater overall charge.

 

Granted, I live in a more ideal location for solar power generation but my panels are not facing south, they're tilted southward but facing eastward and westward; and though they don't peak as high as they might, I get power from first light till last light, AND greater overall power generation.

 

Even if you don't use solar panels, the battery back-up system is a very good idea for consistent power delivery, plus selective charging periods for economical charging will save you money overall.

 

WSM

Edited November 14, 2023 by WSM

[Arthur]

MY electricity tariff is 1/3rd price for units between 2330 and 0630 so I can use the night rate to charge and then discharge during the day. A solar roof would cost planning permission and energy supplier permits.

[WSM]

MY electricity tariff is 1/3rd price for units between 2330 and 0630 so I can use the night rate to charge and then discharge during the day. A solar roof would cost planning permission and energy supplier permits.

 

 

So your best option in the short term is probably to get a high-end battery with an intelligent charger plus a good inverter to run things.

Then proceed as you described...

WSM

 

Edit: If an affordable LiFePo battery option presents itself, they're longer lasting (~5X), have MANY more charging cycles (14X to 35X) in them and weigh a third of what lead/acid batteries do. Also, they will last long enough that the next best battery options should be affordable before the end-of-life of your LiFePo battery(s).

 

Things to consider...

Edited November 18, 2023 by WSM

[WSM]

On 11/11/2023 at 8:07 AM, WSM said:

 

 

As I was biding my time in the search for adequate batteries for my solar project, I came across a significant sale (25% off, plus free shipping!!!) by a solar product company and applied my "magic plastic" to purchase two 100 Ah 48Vdc rack mount LiFePo batteries, which will be wired in parallel to provide 48Vdc 200 Ah's of storage!

 

As I'm waiting for delivery of the batteries, I need to acquire a cutoff switch for the battery bank (for system servicing purposes), similar to the cutoff switch already in place between the panels and the controller/inverter.

 

I'm getting ever closer to electrical energy independence in my workshop for the next 15 plus years. There's lots of exciting prospects ahead for my projects, plus the comfort of knowing we won't be in dire straits if/when the power company fails us !

 

WSM

 

As it turned out, the batteries arrived and I was able to complete the system. 

It worked flawlessly until I shut it down, due to legal entanglements with the City I live in. I was unaware a Solar Permit is required, even when the system is off-grid (oh the joys of living  in a far-left paradise). They aren't opposed to me having a solar system, but they were upset I didn't ask permission (and pay a permit fee) first!

To satisfy them and stop pending penalties, I removed the solar panels; but not until I proved the system & my unusual configuration of it, worked; and worked well!

My current plan is to connect the controller/inverter to house power and keep the batteries charged in that way, effectively turning it into a wonderful UPS (uninterrupted power supply), which will continue to supply power to my shed/workshop, even if the grid-fed power is interrupted.

I'm considering getting the required (demanded) permits and installing solar panels on the roof of my house and attached garage, all connected to another controller/inverter and battery bank. I'm uncertain they will allow it to be off-grid, but that's my plan. We'll see...

WSM 😎

Edited January 7 by WSM

[cmjlab]

I see.  So in the green renewable energy paradises, it's okay to be green and renewable, as long as you still pay the taxes (fees) and make excess energy available to them at your expense (payment to them, to provide them free energy, to turn around and cell)?  

Does that sum it up?  And they said renewable energy would save me $$$ in the long run....

Sorry, I couldn't help myself about being bitter.  It just seems ass backwards, like a home owners association (buy a house for a bunch of others people to exercise ownership over).

Okay, now I'm really done complaining!

I'm glad you were able to test your proof of concept out.  I wish you luck in whichever way you go with your solar energy system.  On another note, is LiFePo new tech, or am I just battery illiterate?

[AustralianPyromaniac]

How did the city know about your system? Doesn't seem like something they'd be actively enforcing.

That said, you're installing a power plant on your roof. We inspect buildings when they're constructed to ensure they are up to code, I don't think it's out of line to have solar installations inspected by the city as other major electrical work should be. If the fee is reasonable (not too high) and just a one-off charge. 

I guess maybe you should have the right to burn down your house, and I'm sure however you or your contractor has installed the panels is more than safe, but I think many homeowners would be worse off without some oversight and building inspections. 

[WSM]

19 hours ago, cmjlab said:

I see.  So in the green renewable energy paradises, it's okay to be green and renewable, as long as you still pay the taxes (fees) and make excess energy available to them at your expense (payment to them, to provide them free energy, to turn around and cell)?  

Does that sum it up?  And they said renewable energy would save me $$$ in the long run....

Sorry, I couldn't help myself about being bitter.  It just seems ass backwards, like a home owners association (buy a house for a bunch of others people to exercise ownership over).

Okay, now I'm really done complaining!

I'm glad you were able to test your proof of concept out.  I wish you luck in whichever way you go with your solar energy system.  On another note, is LiFePo new tech, or am I just battery illiterate?

Yup! That's pretty much it.

LiFePo isn't new technology, but the hottest ticket right now. The next big thing is sodium ion batteries.

The Chinese are investing heavily in it right now and their 2024 electric cars are using them. They will cost less to produce, be less susceptible to catching fire and work better in colder temperatures (high-end LiFePo batteries have thermostatically controlled heaters built in to aid in the cold weather).

WSM

Edited January 8 by WSM

[WSM]

12 hours ago, AustralianPyromaniac said:

How did the city know about your system? Doesn't seem like something they'd be actively enforcing.

That said, you're installing a power plant on your roof. We inspect buildings when they're constructed to ensure they are up to code, I don't think it's out of line to have solar installations inspected by the city as other major electrical work should be. If the fee is reasonable (not too high) and just a one-off charge. 

I guess maybe you should have the right to burn down your house, and I'm sure however you or your contractor has installed the panels is more than safe, but I think many homeowners would be worse off without some oversight and building inspections. 

 

My new next door neighbor's wife works for the city, and she didn't like the look of my solar experiment, so she ratted me out.

The system was installed on the roof of my shed/workshop the back yard. Unfortunately, their living room gives a clear view of my shed roof.

My thoughts now are to pull a permit at some point and install the high-end panels on my house and the attached garage roofs (sp) and wired to the related equipment in the garage, all off-grid (the government and utility company aren't paying for it, so they don't get any of the power produced). 

WSM

[WSM]

On 1/8/2024 at 4:55 AM, WSM said:

My new next door neighbor's wife works for the city, and she didn't like the look of my solar experiment, so she ratted me out.

The system was installed on the roof of my shed/workshop in the back yard. Unfortunately, their living room gives a clear view of my shed roof.

My thoughts now are to pull a permit at some point and install the high-end panels on my house and the attached garage roofs (sp) and wired to related equipment in the garage, all off-grid (the government and utility company aren't paying for it, so they don't get any of the power produced). 

WSM

 

Though I don't have a complete power plant in the workshop, the controller/inverter and battery bank are still in place. If I feed it with 240Vac from the house, my system will be a big UPS (uninterrupted power supply)!

So, if the utility power to my property drops, the workshop will have continuous power till the batteries are drained (or shut off by the controller at a pre-set level). For normal use (lights and an outlet or two) the batteries should last at least a week.

If I go through the permitting process to install the panels on my attached garage and house roofs, which face E/W and S, respectively, I can use a separate controller/inverter plus battery bank to send power to specific circuits (including to the controller/inverter in the workshop) and have my off-grid system fully functional and able to sustain our home, regardless what the power company does. 

I have to study whether the government regulations will allow an off-grid system or if the power company has bought off the government and off-grid is banned for some corrupt reason. (Governments and big utilities hate competition).

Hopefully it's allowed and I can get one permitted here. Doing the system as a DYI project will save me a LOT of money, typically costing less than 20% of what a solar contractor would charge for time and materials! Especially since I'm gathering materials at cost and shopping around for good deals on accessory components.

WSM

Edited January 20 by WSM

[WSM]

The solar saga is on hold till other matters are dealt with. My system is prepared to resume as a battery fed setup, with 240 Vac power (Vac= Volts/alternating current) fed from my home's power panel, to the controller/inverter to maintain the batteries and also supply the sub panel with clean 120/240 Vac.

The benefit of such a setup is if power from the house is interrupted, the batteries will still power the workshop until the power is restored or the batteries power level drops to a pre-determined shut off point (to protect and preserve the batteries). Under normal conditions, I believe my battery bank can feed my workshop for a week or longer before it would shut down.

With the high-end controller/inverter having tremendously variable programming options, I'm able to configure the system to operate as an uninterruptable power supply (UPS) and maintain the batteries in optimal charged condition until needed as the main source during any time a temporary utility service outage occurs, where the system seamlessly transfers power from utility power to battery power. 

When utility power returns, the controller/inverter then switches back to the programmed preferred system condition of power fed from the utility and charging/maintaining the LiFePo battery bank. It sounds like Arthur is investigating a similar set for his home.

My battery setup is in place and only waiting for me to connect the 240 Vac line to the established controller/inverter & battery bank, and reprogramming it to function without solar input (until I can reestablish solar, later).

With solar panels added, I can program the system to preferentially use solar, with utility power as a backup to maintain the batteries when/if solar is not optimal (high power demand in my workshop, short days of Winter or long periods of cloudy weather, for example).

The advantage will be my electro-chemical research won't be subject to damage/interruption if a utility power outage occurs. If solar power is added in, my cost of production will be essentially raw materials and effort with minimal power expense!

WSM

Edited March 3 by WSM

[WSM]

On 3/3/2024 at 7:14 AM, WSM said:

The solar saga is on hold till other matters are dealt with. My system is prepared to resume as a battery fed setup, with 240 Vac power (Vac= Volts/alternating current) fed from my home's power panel, to the controller/inverter to maintain the batteries and also supply the sub panel with clean 120/240 Vac.

The benefit of such a setup is if power from the house is interrupted, the batteries will still power the workshop until the power is restored or the batteries power level drops to a pre-determined shut off point (to protect and preserve the batteries). Under normal conditions, I believe my battery bank can feed my workshop for a week or longer before it would shut down.

With the high-end controller/inverter having tremendously variable programming options, I'm able to configure the system to operate as an uninterruptable power supply (UPS) and maintain the batteries in optimal charged condition until needed as the main source during any time a temporary utility service outage occurs, where the system seamlessly transfers power from utility power to battery power. 

When utility power returns, the controller/inverter then switches back to the programmed preferred system condition of power fed from the utility and charging/maintaining the LiFePo battery bank. It sounds like Arthur is investigating a similar set for his home.

My battery setup is in place and only waiting for me to connect the 240 Vac line to the established controller/inverter & battery bank, and reprogramming it to function without solar input (until I can reestablish solar, later).

With solar panels added, I can program the system to preferentially use solar, with utility power as a backup to maintain the batteries when/if solar is not optimal (high power demand in my workshop, short days of Winter or long periods of cloudy weather, for example).

The advantage will be my electro-chemical research won't be subject to damage/interruption if a utility power outage occurs. If solar power is added in, my cost of production will be essentially raw materials and effort with minimal power expense!

WSM

 

I've stored my solar panels for the time being. I plan to possibly mount them to the house roof at some future time.

In the meantime I've set my controller/inverter up to feed the sub panel in my workshop. The controller/inverter is fed from a 240Vac line from main power panel, and it keeps the lithium iron phosphate battery bank fully charged (which feeds the sub panel with 120/240 Vac to feed my lights and outlets in the workshop, essentially an oversized UPS [uninterruptible power supply]).

Work, family and other projects are consuming most of my time these days, but I hope to get back to working on my extracurricular projects (including electrochemistry) before the year is out.

I'm looking forward to that...

WSM

[pyrojig]

Indeed always a pleasure to see what new observations come from your work .  I hope you get better luck in your new approach.  Enjoy seeing advancements in the thread of kclo4 creations