The Bucket Cell - Start to Finish

[Arthur]

A BCA is far more work than pushing two holes through the lid with a soldering iron (friction fit for 6mm ).

[WSM]

A BCA is far more work than pushing two holes through the lid with a soldering iron (friction fit for 6mm ).

 

 

That is certainly true.

 

I'm still thinking of the times a decade ago when Swede and I were busy scaling up our production while simultaneously attempting to simplify the monsters we've created. Swede was altruistic enough to design and supply BCA's for others here who don't have the means or tooling to make BCA's for themselves. Sadly, he abandoned the effort and electrochemistry sharing quest altogether, and has moved on. His light burned brightly for a while though and we are all still benefitting from his legacy.

 

WSM

Edited August 16, 2022 by WSM

[WSM]

Having found a retail supply of 2.5 litre food storage tubs in polypropylene with PP fitted lid I reckoned that it would survive a year of operation if stood in a bucket. They were about $3 each.

 

 

You may wish to stock up on them while they're available at that price, if you have the space to store them. With the way things are going, they could disappear one day, or cost significantly more.

 

The times, they are a-changing!

 

WSM

[Arthur]

They were sold for in-fridge storage of fruit juices, alternatives are intended for on-counter storage of breakfast cereals..

[WSM]

They were sold for in-fridge storage of fruit juices, alternatives are intended for on-counter storage of breakfast cereals..

 

 

Can you post a photo of the container with a scale for comparison?

 

WSM

Edited August 16, 2022 by WSM

[cmjlab]

WSM,

 

Thanks for the reply. I'll admit I'm no chemist, and the knowledge I do have is all self-taught through reading and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your viewpoint), the internet.

 

I'll check out your blog per your suggestion for more info.

 

I did attempt a small cell (pickle jar style like you mentioned) several years ago, but after much wasted time and failure to invest in the right anode material, I determined my lack of knowledge to make an efficient cell (even if I did spend the money for initial investment), and inability to troubleshoot from a chemistry perspective was better spent acquiring commercial chems. *With that, I admittedly have the luxury of living where I am allowed to do that*.

 

Even if I never actually try a bucket cell, I will also admit that I am in constant awe at how so many hobbyists apply ingenuity and self learning, combined with their practical knowledge to not only produce what is commercially unavailable, but also take the time to share that with others!

 

Charles

[WSM]

WSM,

Thanks for the reply. I'll admit I'm no chemist, and the knowledge I do have is all self-taught through reading and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your viewpoint), the internet.

I'll check out your blog per your suggestion for more info.

I did attempt a small cell (pickle jar style like you mentioned) several years ago, but after much wasted time and failure to invest in the right anode material, I determined my lack of knowledge to make an efficient cell (even if I did spend the money for initial investment), and inability to troubleshoot from a chemistry perspective was better spent acquiring commercial chems. *With that, I admittedly have the luxury of living where I am allowed to do that*.

Even if I never actually try a bucket cell, I will also admit that I am in constant awe at how so many hobbyists apply ingenuity and self learning, combined with their practical knowledge to not only produce what is commercially unavailable, but also take the time to share that with others!

Charles

 

 

I just reread the first four articles in the series (Homegrown Oxidizers) in my blog. For a batch system, parts 1-4 are a good reference. After those articles the series gets more advanced and complicated. I feel the first four articles are a better starting point for beginners till more experience is gained.

 

If you decide to get started and run into problems or have questions, feel free to post them here and several experienced folks here will probably offer (hopefully useful) suggestions to get you past the issues.

 

WSM

Edited August 18, 2022 by WSM

[WSM]

Looking back on things, I think strips of PVC sheet would do to reinforce the bucket lid, to accommodate the weight of the thick BCA I made so the pliable lid material will be able to seal properly and make a nice cell with fewer problems.

 

I've said it before and still believe it to be true, "It's amazing how complicated a simple idea can get when you get to work making it happen!".

 

WSM

Edited November 12, 2022 by WSM

[WSM]

UPDATE: It's been almost a year since the quoted post, so let me bring everyone up to date.

 

(1) I've finally committed to going ahead with the solar project, scheduled for after next weekend. My contractor friend is arranging for all the pieces and I'll send funds to cover the expenses when we get a hard quote. The expectation is that it'll provide enough power to be the main electrical source, plus have surplus power to feed back to the house in case of a power outage, using extension cords (not a fixed, permanent setup).

 

(2) My plans to run a line from the house are on hold. I originally planned to trench between the house and the workshop and run underground power between outdoor rated boxes mounted to each structure.

 

I'm currently feeding power to the workshop through an extension cord and back feeding an exterior outlet to an interior mounted sub panel for lights and outlets. The sub panel has 6 positions, two 15 Amp circuits for lights (all of which are LEDs to conserve power), two 20 Amp circuits for power outlets set up for running tools and other equipment, and one 240 Volt AC breaker for higher power-demand tools.

 

(3) I've decided to do solar as the primary source of power for the workshop, rather than as a supplemental source, keeping it off-grid. I'll use the existing wiring and only have to rearrange the feed to the sub panel when the solar system and its components are installed. The solar system (including battery backup) is designed to provide all the power needed and duration for all my planned operations (and more) plus have surplus electricity to support essential services for the house, in case of a power outage.

 

WSM

 

 

 

It's over four years later (plus Post-Covid) and my plans are finally moving forward. Due to lots of research and careful planning, I took the plunge and chose a high end solar controller/inverter and a fair number of commercial grade solar panels, and paid for them with shipping to my friend's shop. The next major hurdle is the battery packs.

 

My decision is to start with 200Ah worth, and to add more later if needed (100Ah per battery bank). I opted for LiFePo batteries due to their excellent properties and lighter weight compared to traditional lead-acid options (despite the higher initial costs). The lithium batteries are very low maintenance compared to lead-acid batteries.

 

Buying the materials at cost and doing most of the work myself will end up costing me about 25% of what it would be if I hired a local solar contractor.

 

It's still pricey, but after it's set up and running, I believe the break even will happen in a few short years and then it's (nearly) free power after that for over a decade more , if not longer.

 

The jury is out on whether I'll run a buried power link to the workshop or not. The high end controller/inverter is feature rich and can accommodate a 240Vac line input to cover times of low solar input (Winter and cloudy days). It will still be off-grid, but with assurance of continuous operation in sub optimal conditions.

 

The next project after that will be to set up a DI water system. The critical parts are on hand so building and assembly are the next step. The abundant electrical power will allow uninterrupted pumping and controls, plus many other options.

 

Big dreams CAN happen, if you plan appropriately and work hard.

 

WSM

Edited January 16, 2023 by WSM

[WSM]

It's over four years later (plus Post-Covid) and my plans are finally moving forward. Due to lots of research and careful planning, I took the plunge and chose a high end solar controller/inverter and a fair number of commercial grade solar panels, and paid for them with shipping to my friend's shop. The next major hurdle is the battery packs.

My decision is to start with 200Ah worth, and to add more later if needed (100Ah per battery bank). I opted for LiFePo batteries due to their excellent properties and lighter weight compared to traditional lead-acid options (despite the higher initial costs). The lithium batteries are very low maintenance compared to lead-acid batteries.

Buying the materials at cost and doing most of the work myself will end up costing me about 25% of what it would be if I hired a local solar contractor.

It's still pricey, but after it's set up and running, I believe the break even will happen in a few short years and then it's (nearly) free power after that for over a decade more , if not longer.

The jury is out on whether I'll run a buried power link to the workshop or not. The high end controller/inverter is feature rich and can accommodate a 240Vac line input to cover times of low solar input (Winter and cloudy days). It will still be off-grid, but with assurance of continuous operation in sub optimal conditions.

The next project after that will be to set up a DI water system. The critical parts are on hand so building and assembly are the next step. The abundant electrical power will allow uninterrupted pumping and controls, plus many other options.

Big dreams CAN happen, if you plan appropriately and work hard.

WSM

 

 

There was a thought expressed by a friend that this was rather extreme for a chlorate or perchlorate cell, but I believe he misunderstood the scope of my solar aspirations.

 

This idea of mine to go solar is grander in scope. My workshop is in the garden and is as large as I could build without acquiring a permit from local authorities to do so. After it was installed, I set about wiring it for lights and power outlets (inside and out) and installing shelves and workbenches. The source of power in the workshop is a temporary extension cord run from the patio, and I desire a dedicated power source.

 

My decision to consider solar stemmed from the desire to have a quiet (so as to not disturb or alarm my neighbors) and independent power generation system, not dependent on the commercially produced power feeding my home. This is practical only because I live in the Southwest US where ample sunshine is the norm and not the exception.

 

The system I'm building is large enough to feed power to the house refrigerator and some lights during a temporary power outage, through extension cords, if necessary. It can also run some tools and other things as well as power all my projects.

 

WSM

Edited January 19, 2023 by WSM

[WSM]

The solar controller is very high-end (feature rich) and able to be configured to meet MANY different sources, plus expandable and able to be upgraded in the future, if and as needed. The panels and controller are commercial grade and high output capable.

 

I opted for a system capable of supplying 120/240 Vac.

 

When I set it up, I expect it will run flawlessly for many years.

 

WSM

Edited January 19, 2023 by WSM

[WSM]

I forgot to mention, when the workshop is independently powered, I hope to start a bucket cell running to get back into my research!

 

WSM

[cmjlab]

I like the idea of solar power, not because of neighbors, but as a smaller jump into the expense solar power costs "up front". Some day I'll be able to afford solar panels for my home, probably after I retire from the military and get a "real" (better paying) job! Kudos to you though.

Charles

[Arthur]

Solar panels are great but you need a plot that's open to lots of sun and to accept that a dull winter day gives no power (well 0.1% rated) and home uses more than expected.

[WSM]

I like the idea of solar power, not because of neighbors, but as a smaller jump into the expense solar power costs "up front". Some day I'll be able to afford solar panels for my home, probably after I retire from the military and get a "real" (better paying) job! Kudos to you though.

Charles

 

 

In doing it myself, I realized that the photo voltaic cells are the cheapest major part of the whole thing. The inverter/controller is next, but the battery banks are the most expensive component.

 

As far as affordability; well, the kids are grown and independent, I'm still employed and much of this project is funded by "surplus" funds from overtime pay at work. Yes it's expensive, but I've prioritized this project because of the realization that if the electrical infrastructure is compromised in any significant way; having an independent power source, and the peace of mind that provides, will be worth its weight in gold.

 

In the warmer (sunnier) months, I can make my own oxidizers for little more than the cost of the salt plus the work required to make it happen.

 

WSM

[cmjlab]

Fair point. Looking at the budget for this year, my kids definitely account for a significant portion of the expenses. Especially groceries!

 

Charles

[Richtee]

Fair point. Looking at the budget for this year, my kids definitely account for a significant portion of the expenses. Especially groceries!

 

Charles

Yeah..wait for tuition, buddy.

[Arthur]

It should be possible to create a "solar generator" of good battery capacity and fair output capacity, to make a solar panel array very functional. There's one wind turbine in this country that's home made and rated at 2kW at about 50vDC so it's possible if the wind is good and the neighbours like the noise.

[cmjlab]

Tuition in my house will look very much like hot my parents made available to me... Army and/or Scholarships! J/k..... Yeah I can't wait for that.

[WSM]

Fair point. Looking at the budget for this year, my kids definitely account for a significant portion of the expenses. Especially groceries!

Charles

 

My wife and I have six children (and now eight grandchildren). When ours were young, I called it the "planned poverty program" . Now, we live for the "Grandkid time"!

 

WSM

[WSM]

Yeah..wait for tuition, buddy.

 

Fair point. Looking at the budget for this year, my kids definitely account for a significant portion of the expenses. Especially groceries!

Charles

 

 

Being the oldest of nine, I learned from my parents. Buy in bulk when on sale, grow a garden and fruit trees, can the surplus, make your own bread (and pizza dough), avoid prepared food as the main thing because home made from scratch tastes better and is generally healthier.

 

Is it easy? Don't be silly! Is it worth it? Oh, yeah!!!

 

Enjoy the journey!

 

WSM

[cmjlab]

Same / same, 5 kids though (not 6, whew!)

[WSM]

Same / same, 5 kids though (not 6, whew!)

 

 

In this day and age? My hat's off to you, sir! One of my Daughters has five, but she's Super Mom. She just got her Bachelor of Science degree in Marriage and Family Studies last month (she might be over-qualified). Oh, and she's my pyro partner at PGI, too (Dad is SO proud!)!!!

 

WSM

Edited January 31, 2023 by WSM

[WSM]

It should be possible to create a "solar generator" of good battery capacity and fair output capacity, to make a solar panel array very functional. There's one wind turbine in this country that's home made and rated at 2kW at about 50vDC so it's possible if the wind is good and the neighbours like the noise.

 

 

The solar option is quiet. As for wind power, it can be done quietly but it's usually still an eyesore. A simple windmill can be built from an automotive alternator fitted with blades for spinning and a tail to keep it pivoted toward the wind. If I lived rurally, in a windy location, I would probably buy or build one to keep a 12Vdc battery bank charged.

 

WSM

Edited January 31, 2023 by WSM

[WSM]

In doing it myself, I realized that the photo voltaic cells are the cheapest major part of the whole thing. The inverter/controller is next, but the battery banks are the most expensive component.

As far as affordability; well, the kids are grown and independent, I'm still employed and much of this project is funded by "surplus" funds from overtime pay at work. Yes it's expensive, but I've prioritized this project because of the realization that if the electrical infrastructure is compromised in any significant way; having an independent power source, and the peace of mind that provides, will be worth its weight in gold.

In the warmer (sunnier) months, I can make my own oxidizers for little more than the cost of the salt plus the work required to make it happen.

WSM

 

 

Another benefit from having "free" power (after infrastructure costs), is pure water production.

 

I already planned to build an independent water system, and the original idea was to purify tap water using an RO system with a DI filter attached. Then the idea occurred to me, "Why buy impure water from the public source and then incur the expense and effort required to purify it, when I can use "free" electricity to draw pure water from the atmosphere?!!".

 

So my current thinking (I know, corny joke) is to acquire a higher-end dehumidifier and use it to create pure water from thin air, to use for my water storage needs. It even automatically "drains" the collected water out, which I can drop into storage containers for use. I can control the amount of water stored with redundant float switches to cut off the system when the cistern is full.

 

Genius! I wish I came up with the idea myself, but at least I recognized the opportunity when I saw it. The idea of having an off-grid power source just keeps getting better and better!

 

WSM

Edited March 16, 2023 by WSM