AirCowPeacock Posted October 19, 2012 Posted October 19, 2012 It can be frustrating at times, but don't be dishearted. Pyrotechnics is an extreamly rewarding hobby--even if the start up is a bit slow. Advise I wish I followed years back is to work slowly, pataintly, and above all neatly. If experimenting I suggest working on one thing at a time, dont rush. If it doesn't work out, rethink it and try again TOMORROW, not immediatly. This greatly reduces stress. Dont be afraid to follow directions step by step until you get the hang of it--no need to try anything new until you've been through the old--it speaks nothing against the intelegence and creativity of your character.
usapyro Posted October 20, 2012 Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) I just created some granulated BP that is too fast... LoL! It is probably too fast for use as lift. This stuff is ridiculous... Four grams will report in an empty one inch I.D. one foot tall star gun. A quarter of a gram will shoot a smoke ring when ignited... This stuff is comparable to Flash! Good lord... What made the difference? Perfectly dry chemicals... KNO3 and charcoal both baked and sealed with calcium chloride desiccants. KNO3 was milled super-fine before baking too. The drier the meal the longer you can mill it before it starts to cake IMO... Granulation was done with 3% SGRS and just enough water to form granules when balled up and pushed through a 60 mesh screen. Moisture level was only slightly higher than how you wet glitter compositions. So, in order of importance... These are the keys to how you get the fastest BP... 1. Milled until grey and caking2. All chemicals PERFECTLY dry3. All chemicals milled superfine before drying4. Good quality charcoal... Willow, paulownia, etc... The 4th most important thing in my opinion is having the best charcoal... Edited October 20, 2012 by usapyro
mikeee Posted October 20, 2012 Posted October 20, 2012 Superspike23, Mix a little 70/30 and light a fuse to it.It will make you feel better for a little while. :-) Mikeee
usapyro Posted October 20, 2012 Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) My BP is so fast now I don't need flash anymore... LoL!!! This is hilarious... My BP has been slowly speeding up for three years... The only thing that could possibly make it hotter now is a switch to paulownia instead of willow! Edited October 20, 2012 by usapyro
pyrojig Posted October 20, 2012 Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) It will be quite faster. But I find willow better for lifting, and paulownia to burst shells . I have to agree, my paulownia bp is some of the fastest stuff I have ever played with in the world of "BP." It does seem like flash at times. I have had great luck breaking shells w/o booster , using Paulownia bp alone. Great stuff for thundermugs or noise making cannons!! Edited October 20, 2012 by pyrojig
superspike23 Posted October 20, 2012 Author Posted October 20, 2012 My BP is so fast now I don't need flash anymore... LoL!!! This is hilarious... My BP has been slowly speeding up for three years... The only thing that could possibly make it hotter now is a switch to paulownia instead of willow! Well!You use the mill how long to get to this result?I also use coal quality. Willow charcoal.The products I use are all very good and dry.Yet I can not this result.The only thing I can still change it's my ball mill.
usapyro Posted October 20, 2012 Posted October 20, 2012 In my current 3Lb jars with 950g half inch lead media on my mini mills... 200g Composition each jar... I am doing 24 hours milling time starting with KNO3 and Charcoal that is around -400 mesh. My charcoal is not overbaked ever. In fact I usually have to remove a small amount of brown wood on the bottom each batch. However, my drive rollers on my harbor freight mills are not standard... The O.D. is expanded by like a half inch and they are tilted sideways so they can still run. They definitely make a continual little rumbling tumbling sound. Ill have to go over with a tape measure if you want a exact measurement for how much I expanded the rollers.
superspike23 Posted October 20, 2012 Author Posted October 20, 2012 I think I do not use enough media.Media fill 1/4 of the jar.And I make 200g of black powder.The jar is filled half.And it runs an average of 50 / min
usapyro Posted October 20, 2012 Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) Here is how my small habor freight mills are modded... Exact specifications. http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/7835-usapyros-guide-to-harbor-freight-ball-mill-modification/ Edited October 20, 2012 by usapyro
mikeee Posted October 20, 2012 Posted October 20, 2012 A lot more fun to shoot anvils in the air. :-)
usapyro Posted October 20, 2012 Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) Do your store your KNO3 and charcoal with a desiccant like calcium chloride balled up inside paper towels? Either too high moisture levels in your chemicals is the problem or it's not enough milling. My bet is it's not enough milling. You need a good 20-24 hour run with that much media and composition at that speed. 125g of composition should be milled correctly at 12 hours at that speed with those specs. I think I do not use enough media.Media fill 1/4 of the jar.And I make 200g of black powder.The jar is filled half.And it runs an average of 50 / min Edited October 20, 2012 by usapyro
pyrojig Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 That is a horribly long time to mill bp.Harbor freight mills are not a good choice for milling bp ,if your after any fair amount. It would be better to Mill with a larger more efficient mill. I rarely ever go over 6h with a 9lb mill. Only in the attempt to get extremely fast bp. With a good efficient mill only a few hours is needed to get great bp. Your media needs to be enough to not over weigh the mill, and not be buried under the powder being milled. To much powder to media means it wont be efficient , and much longer mill times needed.
usapyro Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) Yea, I got a better setup on the way, but... If your after perfect BP and only have cheap mills... It's the only way to do it. Some people run them for 48 hours to get BP milled properly when they don't increase the mills speed. If your attempting to get powder perfectly milled with a HF mill in a short span of time... Your going to need to run up the mill speed by expanding the drive roller even farther than I do... And lowering the composition amount to like 80g with 2lb's lead... Something like that anyway. Pain in the neck... Probably would be able to get around 80g of perfect black powder in around five to six hours if you tuned things right. Personally... I prefer just going to sleep and going back out to my ball mill the next day at the same time and viola... Perfect BP has arrived again! Or you could try mumbles method of overloading the mill with lead and kick starting it... Be warned, the motor won't last long! Edited October 21, 2012 by usapyro
pyrojig Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 more speed is not the key, but heavier media and a suitable mill are. Too much speed and inertia works against you. I have a hexagon shaped drum that does a wonderful job at lower speeds. It uses the cascading effect to shorten mill times and increase efficiency.
dagabu Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 I think this is just crazy, a well tuned mill with good media should never take more than a couple hours, every minute that goes by milling is one minute closer to the inevitable explosion that will come eventually. This is why we barricade them in the first place. There are way too many documented cases of mill explosions with no particular point of failure to be lax about the amount of time these run, especially in homes and garages. $50.00 worth of Zirc media is well worth its cost then compared to the cost of legal help, repairs etc. Running a ball mill for 48 hours is just ridiculous IMHO. -dag
nater Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 If your mill jar is only 1/4 full of media, you should add more. The general rule of thumb is the jar is 1/2 full of media, and you mill enough comp that would fill 1/4 of the jar when it is done. I use a small 3lb jar from a Harbor Frieght tumbler with the diameter of the driving roller increased. It has 5 pounds of .45 lead balls and I generally mill 100g of comp at once for 2 - 2.5 hours. My BP and similar comps are not the fastest on the planet. but that is not my goal.
dagabu Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 1/2 the jar by volume with your media and then add the comp so that when shaken down into the media, it covers the media by about 1/4" but no more. Less comp will wear your media down fast and too much will be inefficient. -dag
superspike23 Posted October 21, 2012 Author Posted October 21, 2012 you have a model of ball mill to advise me?, and what media?dagabu Is right I is dangerous to let the mill run 24 hours.In a few hours if you can get a good quality black powder, I do not ask more
dagabu Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 Yes, I recommend the Lloyd Sponnenberg type PVC ball mill using Zirc M, 1/2" diameter grinding media. -dag
usapyro Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) LoL... Some of us runs our mills for weeks and weeks straight re-filling them with composition back to back day after day. Running a efficient high speed mill with the proper media amount that makes black powder in an hour is MUCH more dangerous than running a slower speed mill that takes 20-24 hours. But, the explosion risk is like one in a million so it's kinda irrelevant... Blowing up a mill is really the least of my worries... Could care less except for the replacement cost of the mill. It doesn't hurt the media. Edited October 21, 2012 by usapyro
Mumbles Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 To get good blackpowder in a few hours you need an efficient mill. A rock tumbler will not do it in that amount of time unmodified. The videos you've shown recently certainly look like good quality BP. Remember it's not always about the fastest compositions. In the grand scheme of things BP is very cheap to produce. If you need to use an extra couple of grams, so be it. To me it's far more important to produce a consistent product in my opinion. I will agree with Dag partly here. There is a point of diminishing returns as far as BP production goes. Letting it go for too long reaps next to no reward, and increases the hazard. However this doesn't mean that if you can't be done within 4hr or so it's not worth making. To me, you should mill it as long as you have to in order to get a good product. Increasing the roller diameter of the driven roller (to increase the RPM's) will make it more efficient, as does having a properly charged jar.
dagabu Posted October 22, 2012 Posted October 22, 2012 LoL... Some of us runs our mills for weeks and weeks straight re-filling them with composition back to back day after day. Running a efficient high speed mill with the proper media amount that makes black powder in an hour is MUCH more dangerous than running a slower speed mill that takes 20-24 hours. But, the explosion risk is like one in a million so it's kinda irrelevant... Blowing up a mill is really the least of my worries... Could care less except for the replacement cost of the mill. It doesn't hurt the media. Then you are a mathematical idiot. How would you quantify that statement anyhow? Is this a wild guess or based on empirical evidence? Think about that statement once more, don't answer tonight, you will just gush while being pissed off, take a full day and think about it first. -dag
usapyro Posted October 22, 2012 Posted October 22, 2012 Pretty easy... A ball mill running at 70-80 RPM manages to lift the lead balls 2/3rds of the way to the top of the ball mill versus around 1/3rd to 1/2 for the slow 40-50RPM mills. The lead falls from upto twice the height and has a much higher velocity strike speed. Twice as high isn't twice the impact. It's multiple times the impact pressure. I think the ratio is 10x per each doubling in height like earthquake Richter scales or something like that. So... 10x the risk of explosion for an equivalent amount of time. Viola! Rough approximation but it works... Btw guys, make sure to make a video for this thread!!! Lets see who has the fastest powder:http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/7844-black-powder-contest-video-contest/
pyrojig Posted October 22, 2012 Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) I must say this is the best explained way to gauge your amount of material to mill ( comp/media).As far as a video, (@usapyro) speed is one thing, but other factors come into play here too. There is speed( spolette test), power( muzzle velocity ) , and gas production(flight time it creates) . Each has its uses. The fastest may not be the best choice for most pyro purposes, but it is a legitimate marker in bp. All these factors are limited to the charcoal used ( assuming all other factors are kept consistent. mill times, particle size, etc.) 1/2 the jar by volume with your media and then add the comp so that when shaken down into the media, it covers the media by about 1/4" but no more. Less comp will wear your media down fast and too much will be inefficient. -dag Edited October 22, 2012 by pyrojig
usapyro Posted October 22, 2012 Posted October 22, 2012 Looks like Pyrojig can't beat my BP burn rate... Hahaha... One down... Lots more to go! Who else has slower BP than me? :D Admit defeat or make a video. I must say this is the best explained way to gauge your amount of material to mill ( comp/media).As far as a video, (@usapyro) speed is one thing, but other factors come into play here too. There is speed( spolette test), power( muzzle velocity ) , and gas production(flight time it creates) . Each has its uses. The fastest may not be the best choice for most pyro purposes, but it is a legitimate marker in bp. All these factors are limited to the charcoal used ( assuming all other factors are kept consistent. mill times, particle size, etc.)
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