Rolling Tubes

[graumann]

The ingenuity of the people here never ceases to amaze, well done col, shall watch with keen interest.

[Col]

Cheers mate,

I have some of the rolling machine hardware on order but it`ll be a while before its up and running. I decided the 1/2 hp ex-pillar drill motor doesnt have enough torque so i`m back to my original plan of using the 3/4hp motor to drive several machines. I spent the afternoon in the shed figuring the best layout. It turns out the tube roller stand is a good 4" lower than the worktop so i`ll be able to postion the more dangerous end of the machine under the worktop out of the way and gain a bit more space to push the finished tube off the mandrel.

[dan999ification]

fancy offloading the pillar drill motor? When its up and running do you intend to sell any? You make some of if not the strongest tubes in the uk by the looks of it, and thats without a machine, i cant imagine how well thhese will turn out but can see you having a surplus, the missus said if i made one there would be tubes evrywhere.... She knows only too well.

 

Dan.

[Col]

Hi Dan,

The motor isnt really worth selling mate and i`m bound to think of a use for it at some point I havent considered selling any, the main reason for building it is make the job less tedious. Having the option of rolling long tubes for candles or to cut up for big cakes is another plus.

I dont envisage having stacks of tubes piled up, my shed seems to get smaller by the day as it is

[Mortartube]

If you cover your former with PVC electrical tape in lengths running the same direction as the length to one layer thick, that is about right to account for shrinkage in most tubes made with PVA glue. You can then remove the tape if you need to use it as a rammer as well.

[Col]

Hi Mortartube,

I used to use sacrificial paper sleeves to prevent sticking and bring up the former diameter. If you roll a lot of tubes, its worth shelling out on bespoke stainless steel formers that are oversized to account for the shrinkage. I doubt i`ll use the formers for rammers as they are 3ft long Using the former as a rammer could potentially mushroom the ends slightly, which would affect the straightness during rolling (one end slightly raised due to the mushroom). If you mushroom both ends it`d be difficult to get the tube off

[dan999ification]

no worries col, theres me rolling tubes just loose enough to ram with the same former, wood for most but the metal is better at releasing the paper if you make it too tight, an art but like you say tedious, my motor is the size of a d cell does the job but lacks the umph for my needs now ( it has to be one sesh/one day ) i need a machine to strip down.

 

Dan.

[Col]

You can find 3/4-1hp bouncy castle blowers reasonably cheap on ebay, the decent ones have TEFC motors as they`re used outdoors

There`s a 1hp blower sitting at £22 with 14hrs to go, its pickup only (Hitchin area) Item number: 180970331742

[dan999ification]

i have a rather large bouncy castle in the garage no motor, really that cheap, im so stingy i never looked, normally wait for things to turn up in front of me but it holds up progress a bit, oh well i should search more and roll less when time allows.

Thanks for the link col.

 

Dan.

[Col]

I acquired a few kilo`s of chinese wheat starch to see how it compares to pva and wheat paste made from strong white flour. Its strange stuff, a freshly cooked 10:1 water/starch mix looks very similar to wallpaper paste. It turns into a very firm opaque jelly as it cools so i added 30% pure water, blitzed it in a blender and ran it through a fine sieve to get a smooth paste. The diluted paste is seriously sticky and dries bullet hard, it`ll be interesting to see how much pressure a 2" section of the tube handles before it splits. The tube spec: 3/4" id with a 3/16" wall, a 7.5" (1lb) tube weighs in at exactly 51g.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Col

[dan999ification]

you got some serious work here col, im gonna try your glue if i dont have to buy pva im happy, no cakes for a while then (the sponge type )

 

dan.

[Col]

The wheat starch is supposedly more fireproof than pva which is a bonus. A 1lb 3/16" wall tube is dirt cheap at about 12p and thats with virgin kraft

On a different note, I scored a bargain at the local charity shop, a 4ft wooden blind with 72 (25mm x 2mm) wooden slats for a quid!. Not sure what the wood is but its very lightweight (each 4ft slat weighs 32g) so it looks like a few girandola`s might be on the cards,

To that end, i`ve been playing around with a wallpaper steam stripper and a 5ft length of 2" aluminium tube to steam bend the slats into hoops. Never a dull moment

[dan999ification]

you could route a jig for the frames to be uniform, steam them in, my dolas arent balanced that well and nearly always chase me, good symetrical light frames is what i need.

I did notice that sometimes on endburners the pva has a chance to melt a bit you dont want that inside the tube, so wheat wont affect the burn even if the inside is pasted, i imagine you would get the comp to grip the walls better aswell, bonuses.

 

Dan.

[Col]

Looks like its going to be 11" id hoops, the slats have two slots where the cords go through which form a weak point.

Here`s the hoop jig, simple but effective

Edited September 18, 2012 by Col

[taiwanluthiers]

When making machines for rolling tube, how do you secure the first wrap to the mandrel?

[Col]

With machine rolling, the paper is completely covered with glue so it sticks to the mandrel. The inertia tightens the first turn on the mandrel, a bit like wheel spin . The tube only takes a few seconds to roll so the glue doesnt have a chance to dry and the tube can be pushed off the mandrel. Edited September 18, 2012 by Col

[dan999ification]

there we go, jigs are simple to make, a few for different jobs saves time and temper, plus you get identical pieces.

Are these to be 3/4 tubes? And is the machine hand fed or does it roll the flap for you when you start? Is the glue continuously applied with a hopper or similar ?Mine is way too complicated and expensive to justify building after seeing yours.

Do you see a problem with wheat paste inside the tube when using bp comps? I ask because like you say glue can set on the mandrel if you dont hurry or keep it away, making life difficult to take perfect tubes off, the paste should break free even if it has had the chance to go off a bit.

 

What is evryones rate of sucsess with rolling tubes by hand ( honestly ! ) mine is probably 80 percent perfect and the rest have other uses, i remember when it was 10 percent and i was still happy with free tubes.

 

Dan.

[Col]

The machine will do any size from 1/2" id to 2" id (1/4" wall) which is fine for my needs. The machine takes care of rolling the initial flap which is probably the hardest part of hand rolling tubes, especially long ones As for the paste sticking, i purposely left a tube on the mandrel until it was completely dry and it was fairly easy to break free using a pair of molegrips and a piece of leather on the mandrel.

I sacrificed a few blind slats to figure how long they needed to be to fit the hoop jig perfectly. I also figured 2 minutes in the steam box makes the slats supple enough to bend into the jig but cooking them for 5 minutes turns them into brittle kindling I`m debating if i should rip the slats in half lengthwise with the bandsaw, 2x 1/2" hoop dola frame versus a single hoop 1" deep.

[spitfire]

I feel old-fashion reading this... you guys have rolling machines. I roll my tubes by hand, lengths up to 70cm. After rolling and compressing, i cut them to length with a large razor sharp butcher's knife. Still on the rod. Gives me perfect strong tubes, with a nice smooth edge, but it is a lot of work.

[dan999ification]

its only him up there ( for now ) i cant roll 70cm tubes, but do compress and cut with a butchers knife, being a butcher and all, after nearly perfecting the tecnique its hard to imagine another way, a sharp pipe cutter is also good at cutting tubes but they need to be dry and on the mandrel.

 

Dan.

[Col]

I like time saving gadgets The longest tubes i`ve handrolled are 30cm and its not easy to keep constant pressure on those unless you have hands like dinner plates.

[dan999ification]

save time but takes time ( years in my case ) the fun is in the imagination.

I feel the same spitfire, just when you get a new car someone overtakes in a ferrari ( vroom...... Oh its col ) (again).

 

Dan.

[PyroCube]

Hi all

 

I know this thread is quite old, but I have still a few questions to you Col:

How do you get such perfect tubes out of 70g/m2 paper?

In my case I went for thicker paper, but still with 160g/m2 it`s quite difficult to get the tube tight without

air bubbles and gaps between the layers.

When I wet 80g kraft paper with wheat paste or wood glue, it gets almost immediately bubbly and it`s impossible

to roll a good tube.

 

 

Greets

[Col]

Just takes a bit of practice. Use virgin kraft, apply the glue evenly and sparingly. Like painting, its better to use 2 thin coats than 1 thick one.

Roll the tube with the grain (ie; the kraft rib lines should run along the length of the former) and keep your weight on it, I average 20kg on a 3/4" tube. To get an idea of how much weight you`re using, roll a tube on a board on a bathroom scale.

I`m looking forward to never having to handroll another tube, as you get older its too much like hard work

Here`s some of the roller mounts for the rolling machine. They were laser cut from 1/4" steel plate.

.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Col

[PyroCube]

Hi Col

Thank you for your answer, unfortunately here in Switzerland

Virgin kraftpaper isn`t available.

I will try to roll some tubes with 210g/m2 copy paper, it should be thick enough

to prevent bubbles and get a smooth tube...

 

Greets